FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
It still ate all of them, mainly becuase of pilot training......loomaluftwaffe said:
Best Dogfighter Poll Revisited...
- Thread starter lesofprimus
- Start date
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wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
evangilder said:
That might or might not be the truth - I don't know. Consider this before you dismiss this as out of hand.At the time and place 1943, North Africa/Sicily/Sardinia, that this "name" is supposed to have begun, this was the situation in the Med as described by the German Commander of Sardinia's Luftwaffe force, Johannes Stienhoff.
In his book "Messerschmidt's Over Sicily", he writes that the air defense of the island was "hopless". Stienhoff in his bid for reinforcements, told Galland that the "Luftwaffe no longer held the qualitative or quantitative advantage. The fact that American P-38s could and would turn up anywhere at any time was very troubling. Moreover, The clear superiority of the Lightning, in both speed and maneuverability, was especially disconcerting".
Like I said above, I can't prove it one way or the other, In light of Stienhoff's statement to the General of the Air Force Galland and the situation at the time, it certainly cannot be dismissed out of hand. Lastly, is there anyone who can categorically disprove it?
I'm not going to push it either way - I certainly don't have enough information. I'm also not going to accept a flat statement either way! Just my opinion.
wmax
lonestarman63
Airman
the hellcat has the best kill to loss ratio of any us fighter . yes ki 84 frank was a great fighter , and the NIK2 shiden or George KI 61 and 100 tonys . The frank intered service march of 43 and did not get to combat till early 44 the speed rate of climb is slightly better at best and it could not out turn the big cat or take hits like the cat .
since it was in service for over a year and production reached over 3700 it do dought fought against it , since it was a army plane it did not suffer like the zero persay in the fact the the best pilots drowned , the frank had more trouble was it lost its wings flaps ect in stress , that is very bad for the frank driver , i dont here of that happening to the cat so i was sat the cat would and as a dogfighter it would have beat the frank hands down
since it was in service for over a year and production reached over 3700 it do dought fought against it , since it was a army plane it did not suffer like the zero persay in the fact the the best pilots drowned , the frank had more trouble was it lost its wings flaps ect in stress , that is very bad for the frank driver , i dont here of that happening to the cat so i was sat the cat would and as a dogfighter it would have beat the frank hands down
lonestarman63
Airman
KI 61 Tony came into sevice april of 43 ,2650 + were made so there is no dought that met the hellcat like the frank . in spec's the cat 3400 + climb . rate eats the 2200 of tony alive roll rate for the tony was just as bad and turning the cat could out turn it easy , so hands down it coould beat the Tony
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
The Hellcat was a great aircraft - it also had a target rich enviornment against sub-par competition...............lonestarman63 said:
loomaluftwaffe
Tech Sergeant
- 1,840
- Dec 20, 2005
Aside from the engine.. what were the problems of th N1K2-j? i know the undercarriage problem was fixed
lonestarman63
Airman
the point being the hellcat , just did not just meet the zero's from japan. as japan had army fighters everywhere also and the hellcat did great agaist them great them as well if yo take in to where they meaning japan made the Ki 100 and Ki61 tonys and the Ki 84 Frank
a little after the hellcat came into service in 1943 so yes the most part was against sub par foes yet that was what it was built for to take out the zero little else and it did it better than any other us fighter weith very lil changes to the planes so as to dog fighting it was the best in what one would say a dog fighter was to do for in fact there were very few real dog fighters in ww 2 one could say that in fact of the many types one two that were the zero and the hellcat i mean in great amounts the rest could not fight toe to toe in what one would call i dog fight agaist the zero none of the other fighters could stay in a turning fight with the zero not the spit
ect , none yet the one ship that was made for that was the hellcat and it did ,not that it could turn with the zero , it came closest , and did kill the zero all others had to use the dive and run , hellcats did also but they could mix it up if they had to. so that is the reason i choose the hellcat as the best dog fighter. not the best fighter
a little after the hellcat came into service in 1943 so yes the most part was against sub par foes yet that was what it was built for to take out the zero little else and it did it better than any other us fighter weith very lil changes to the planes so as to dog fighting it was the best in what one would say a dog fighter was to do for in fact there were very few real dog fighters in ww 2 one could say that in fact of the many types one two that were the zero and the hellcat i mean in great amounts the rest could not fight toe to toe in what one would call i dog fight agaist the zero none of the other fighters could stay in a turning fight with the zero not the spit
ect , none yet the one ship that was made for that was the hellcat and it did ,not that it could turn with the zero , it came closest , and did kill the zero all others had to use the dive and run , hellcats did also but they could mix it up if they had to. so that is the reason i choose the hellcat as the best dog fighter. not the best fighter
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
And when you say "dogfighter" you put a very simplistic view on this - ask any fighter pilot, the object IS NOT to dog fight - it's to close in on your enemy and shoot him down - PERIOD! If you're placed in a situation where you're twisting and turning for more and 30 seconds, you already failed to gain the initiative and it may cost you you're life. The Hellact took on opponents in great numbers along with mainly inferior pilots flying the opposition, as far as the aircraft itself, if it fought the Zero below 300 mph it was easily out maneuvered, and this has been pr oven during and after WW2 (I witnessed this myself during a mock "dogfight" at Chino Airport).lonestarman63 said:
There were many other aircraft that well better than the Hellcat on all counts - the Hellcat just was at the right place at the right time to severely maul the Japanese, and it did its job well, but as far as maneuverability and performance, it was not "Top Dog."
lonestarman63
Airman
the point of the poll was dog fighter, not fight and run
lonestarman63
Airman
and a mock fight has nothen to do with real fight ie , for exsample when i was in the army i saw a F 4 going against a f 16 and the f 4 one the fight , is that saying the f 4 was better than the 16 no it was the pilot not the plane so in case of many fights agaisnt many types and many grades of fighters pilots is the only way to look at a planes weekness or streths not a mock fight or one time ingagment
- Thread starter
- #351
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
And maybe u need to go back to school and learn how to spell.... nothen is nothing, exsample is example, one is won, weekness is weakness, streths is strengths, and ingagment is engagement...
And the F4 winning an engagement with an F-16 means the Falcon pilot was either sleeping or some nugget straight outta OCS, or ur whole little story is bullshit....
The Hellcat could not and did not turn with the Zero below 300mph....
And for the record, how does an Army puke get to witness mock combat between 2 non-Army aircraft, and how do u know who won???
And the F4 winning an engagement with an F-16 means the Falcon pilot was either sleeping or some nugget straight outta OCS, or ur whole little story is bullshit....
The Hellcat could not and did not turn with the Zero below 300mph....
And for the record, how does an Army puke get to witness mock combat between 2 non-Army aircraft, and how do u know who won???
Attachments
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
No - the point was which aircraft, if placed in a Dogfight was the best aircraft - and the Hellcat, while sporting a very impressive combat record, doesn't come close to other aircraft shown here as far as maneuverability and performance.....lonestarman63 said:
I'd bet dollars to donuts that the vast majority of F6F WW2 kills were accomplished with the Hellcat bearing down on its opponent at high speed and blasting away......
In a real dogfight if you loose the initiative you better run if you want to live!!!!
And the mock dogfight I witnessed wasn't a "one time deal." Several flights were made and both pilots were highly skilled. Bottom line the Zero won when it forced the Hellcat to fight on its terms....
- Thread starter
- #354
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Im funny MOST of the time, and just plain pathetic the rest... My above post is indeed quite funny, according to the Comedy Central Laugh-o-Meter Scale...
Henk
Master Sergeant
lesofprimus said:
Henk
loomaluftwaffe
Tech Sergeant
- 1,840
- Dec 20, 2005
nice
and dude, who in the right mind would put such a big and heavy plane in a dogfight against a little Japanese Zero or an Oscar?
and dude, who in the right mind would put such a big and heavy plane in a dogfight against a little Japanese Zero or an Oscar?
- Thread starter
- #357
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
David McCampbell....
lonestarman63
Airman
first off i was with a pilot on the ground he was or is a pilot and was working with the ground forces as a pathfinder , second the us was the country that was crazy to put up against them, and agaisnt the zero > the hellcat had a better record the any other type . spit or other wise thank very much beside do you have to be rude to try and make a point , to those that were, sorry to flyboy i do see your point and as far as the army goes , what would you know
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
I think it would be next to impossible to figure out who won a dog fight from the ground if they were low enough to see them as they work at 9 miles a minute binoculars would be useless because of lateral separation so how could you determine who got into firing position or even if they had a firing solution
- Thread starter
- #360
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Yup....
I agree with pb, there is no way to possibly determine who won a dogfight between two supersonic jets, pilot or no pilot....
I was a Navy SEAL and saw more combat than u did Im sure, and endured one of the toughest training curriculums in the world.... Army Rangers??? HA! We were singing cadences while they were puking their guts out....
U Army pukes could shine my jump boots for $5.00 bucks, if u asked me nice enough...
