Best Dogfighter Poll Revisited...

[lesofprimus]

Fu*k him, he's alittle opininated cry-baby looking for attention in the cyberworld, cause Mommy refused the tit to him.... Pretty sure we're seeing #16 here gents....

And yea meatball, for the record, I am the Sherriff, and if u dont like it, say so and I'll ban ur *** for u so u can keep ur head up, pround and mighty, and tell all ur pet Roos that u were picked on by the big bad bully.... Ive had enough of this cu*t.... Just crack it a little tiny bit, thats all it will take at this junction.....

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You see Jeff there are 3 catagories of people here:

1. The Core/Regulars: Quite a bit of people who enjoy coming on here learning from each other about WW2 aviation. We all get along and there is no problem between any of us. There were even a few people like you that learned there lesson and now are contributing members of the forum and you know what they even get along with Les.

2. The Every once in a whilers: They come around a couple of times a month and make some pretty good posts that everyone learns from.

3. The meatballs: They either come here make stupid posts and never come back because they cant take the heat they get from it. Or there are the real meatballs that think they can be the **** and they get banned....

Basically we dont like meatballs around here. Catagory 1 and 2 are okay but meatball catagory people dont last long. I am sure they dont last long outside of cyberspace as well....

 

[lonestarman63]

I just like to learn and debate with good folks is all thanks for the reply 8)

 

[ohka345]

Has to be the Ki-84.It could reach high altitudes,has 4mgs,and usually nice paint jobs.

 

[pbfoot]

yep the paint jobs do it

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I see my pm did not do any good.

 

[Hunter368]

Does this guy think he's the Sherriff , on many other Forum he would have been kicked of by now.

being a Navy seal explains a lot though.

Dude, comments like that get you no where fast and they earn you no friends. Don't insult a person's country or his time in the Military.

Brutal

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Hunter that was back in July of last year!

 

[Hunter368]

Hunter that was back in July of last year!

Oops my bad.

 

[Treize]

LoL, I was definitely in the minority saying "Tempest" wasn't I...

Still stand by it though, as far as combining overall speed, climb rate, maneuverability (not the best turner out there, but decent and rolls pretty well) and knock-down punch goes.

190D9 would be second.

Despite my avatar and bias, I wouldn't even put the 51 in the top 5. Its not a dogfighter, except in the hands of a real expert. high wing loading, poor climb, touchy handling characteristics...

 

[renrich]

For what it is worth, at the Joint Fighter Conference, October, 1944, a large group of pilots evaluated and ranked fighters as to certain characteristics. Best all around fighter above 25000 ft: P47D,P51D,F4U1D, F6F5,F4U4,P38L Best all around fighter below 25000ft: P51D,F4U1D,F6F5,F4U4 (P38 and P47 not mentioned)

 

[drgondog]

I would be sorely pressed to not name Tempest based on High/low all around capability, but I couldn't remove the Spit or the F4U-4 or even the 51 but I would prefer the B w/Malcolm Hood.

This one goes back to Mission because I don't think any single one excelled at 30K, 15K or the Deck, nor can you include any of the above except Spit if you say it has to dogfight over water (as in a LOT of it)

So, unless you limit once again ops only with dry feet the silly old Corsair or Sea Fury is your huckleberry.. pesky questions

Regards,
Bill

 

[drgondog]

No it wasn't. The Spitfire was a better dogfighter than the Mustang. The Mustang had a range advantage over the Spitfire, that's all.

So, how many German fighters did the Spit XIV shoot down as compared to P47D and P-51B/C (same ship different plant)..results are possibly an important factor in this discussion as all pilots are not equal and certainly not the engagement factors - and being able to go a long way and engage on even near equal terms is a huge advantage.

I would Not say the 51 (any variant) was a better dogfighter than the Spit - except for one very important factor - the range. The 51 was a better dogfighter over Brunswick, Stuttgart, Munich and Berlin simply because it was there and the Spit XIV was not.

When the XIV could engage at altitude or on the deck it was better than the 51. If it had to fight some Yaks and Laags on the deck, maybe not?

Anyway I'll vote for the XIV as the one I would lean to if I had to put my butt in the seat in a real fight.

Regards,

Bill

 

[Erich]

as for battling the Soviet a/c at medium to deck level.........I'll take the Fw 190Dora every time. JG 3 accts prove this

 

[Jackson]

was the Dora competitive over 30000 feet with a P38L?

 

[Erich]

question would be this : did any Dora 9, 11 or 12 unit ever come in contact with any P-38 variant of the 15th Af ? in my opinion..............no

so how do you compare ? we do know that 15th AF units flying Stangs like the 31st fg were engaged with Doras even as early as January 20, 45 against II./JG 301 and even this Luftw. unit may have been in contact with P-38's. I doubt it seriously but it may have. Most Dora units were in touch with RAF/RCAF birds and with the Soviets in 45. JG 301 was on par with the US 8th AF daily

 

[Jackson]

I dunno, it soo hard to compare,

Lke the 51-H, I have heard that it shared NO compnents with the 51D...

But heck, the F100 has a few P51D parts, like the rudder pedals..

How much did the Ta152 share with the Dora? The 152 never even got the chance to air out its developement problems, many were simply gounded.

The P38 L , well, it was way past the pre "J" model problems.

To me the 152 was a 'shoulda woulda coulda" maybe.. Yeah I have heard about it fighting down on the deck, but I never heard of it getting anywhere never a P38 L at altitude.

Think about it.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And why do you bring that up Jackson? Whats your agenda hear? You bring up a 152 with Erich when he was not even talking about a 152...

He said against Russian ACFT at Med to Deck level he would taka Fw 190D. So why bring up a 152 against a P 38L above 30,000ft....

Stay on topic please.

 

[Lucky13]

What about other manouvers beside turning and rolls like accelerate and brake? I guess that during a dogfight you'll be pushing and pulling in your (darn I can't remember the name but you know what I mean) to increase and decrease rpm, right? Which one of these had the best chance of braking to get your nemesis off your tail and then to accelerate to get behind this already mention person and nail him?

 

[Soren]

So, how many German fighters did the Spit XIV shoot down as compared to P47D and P-51B/C (same ship different plant)..results are possibly an important factor in this discussion as all pilots are not equal and certainly not the engagement factors - and being able to go a long way and engage on even near equal terms is a huge advantage.

I would Not say the 51 (any variant) was a better dogfighter than the Spit - except for one very important factor - the range. The 51 was a better dogfighter over Brunswick, Stuttgart, Munich and Berlin simply because it was there and the Spit XIV was not.

When the XIV could engage at altitude or on the deck it was better than the 51. If it had to fight some Yaks and Laags on the deck, maybe not?

Anyway I'll vote for the XIV as the one I would lean to if I had to put my butt in the seat in a real fight.

Regards,

Bill

Bill, the P-51 proved succesful because of its range and numbers, pure and simple. The P-51's simply swarmed the LW fighters pretty much everytime they met.

Another prime reason why the P-51 got more kills than the Spitfire was that it didn't dogfight the LW fighters anywhere near as much, it started out above the Allied bombers and poured down on the LW fighter whilst they were climbing or intercepting the bombers, a turkey shoot for any a/c equipped with guns.

The P-51 was not at all a good dogfighter, it was a decent B&Z fighter though.