Lucky13
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Soren and all, what would the scenery have been if there had been as many Fw 190D's as P-51D at the end of 1944?
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pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
why were they climbing when they had home court advantage any militery would strive to be the Hun in the Sun if they were capable
Soundbreaker Welch?
Tech Sergeant
A lot of wrecked bombers.
drgondog
Major
Soren - Do you have any knowledge of the strength and composition of the P-51 groups on February 1, March 1, April 1 and May 1 - 1944? Do you know and understand the tactical doctrine of 8th FC with respect to tactics? It was NOT to 'fly high above' the bomb groups. There were several reason which I will explain later if you care to hear them -
Do you understand that the LW was smart? They didn't wake up 15 minutes before Bombs away and say to themselves "I must climb abd fighter for der Fatherland".
They didn't say to themselves "Gee the way we must fight is to a.) fly with as few possible and as low as possible so that we can ensure that "we Vill be outnumbered and stupiud", and b.) try not to put as many fighters and zerstorers in one area as possible to maximize the damage?
If you understand the relative strength of the 9th and 8th AF Mustang Groups - all accounted for during those months? If so, you should feel a little silly.
Last but not least, there were so few encounters in which more than two Mustang squadrons actually engaged with any number from 20 to 200 LW fighters as to be unimportant. In that timeframe (of Jan 11 to end of May)
Because of the B/C Mustang early production problems many of those missions were flown at 1/2 to 2/3 strength so even two squadrons were lucky to meet the LW. You don't have to take my word for this, the strengths and statistics are published.
The reasons are simple - so few Mustangs on target support beyond range of P-47, but required to try and protect three separate Bomb Division Task Forces, and each Task Force going to different locations and each strung out 20-40 miles.
So, "Vere ar der Schwarms"??
It is hard to make "diving attacks with swarms" when you are mostly climbing to attack, frequently outnumbered, because the next nearest Mustang Group is 20-40 miles away escorting a different combat wing. This 'numerical defect' basically disappeared from June forward to major superiority on part of Mustangs and Long Range P-47s.
But if the Mustangs weren't 'dogfighting' to your standards, the Me109s and Fw190s were at least trying to and the reason I made the comment is that the pitiful 8th AF just had 'to make do' with a lousy dogfighter to make Strategic Bombing work - and somehow crushed the LW in the Jan-June timeframe with those pitiful machines.
I am really curious how much history you have studied from both sides..and your profile doesn't give much away?
Regards as always
Bill
Apparently you're not aware of the fact that mostly LW fighters were out-numbered 8 to 1 then ? Doesn't sound at all like what you describe... Not that its a surprise.
And as to my knowledge on the history of the airwar, well I've read countless books on the subject, most recently Willi Reschke's Wilde Sau which also notes the overwhelming advantage in numbers almost always enjoyed by the Allies.
PS: Are you trying to be funny with these remarks ?:"Do you understand that the LW was smart? They didn't wake up 15 minutes before Bombs away and say to themselves "I must climb abd fighter for der Fatherland".
They didn't say to themselves "Gee the way we must fight is to a.) fly with as few possible and as low as possible so that we can ensure that "we Vill be outnumbered and stupiud", and b.) try not to put as many fighters and zerstorers in one area as possible to maximize the damage?
If you understand the relative strength of the 9th and 8th AF Mustang Groups - all accounted for during those months? If so, you should feel a little silly"
I will not if you carry on in the same manner as above.
And as to my knowledge on the history of the airwar, well I've read countless books on the subject, most recently Willi Reschke's Wilde Sau which also notes the overwhelming advantage in numbers almost always enjoyed by the Allies.
PS: Are you trying to be funny with these remarks ?:"Do you understand that the LW was smart? They didn't wake up 15 minutes before Bombs away and say to themselves "I must climb abd fighter for der Fatherland".
They didn't say to themselves "Gee the way we must fight is to a.) fly with as few possible and as low as possible so that we can ensure that "we Vill be outnumbered and stupiud", and b.) try not to put as many fighters and zerstorers in one area as possible to maximize the damage?
If you understand the relative strength of the 9th and 8th AF Mustang Groups - all accounted for during those months? If so, you should feel a little silly"
I will not if you carry on in the same manner as above.
Soren lighten up he was just trying to be funny and that is what most German sound like when they speak English. You know the "Ve Haf vays to make you talk...." 
My wife even laughs at it and she is German.
My wife even laughs at it and she is German.
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
What sounds perfectly good and funny when said, can sound completely different even when meant well. Language barriers and all that. I think that you know what I mean Adler, right?
drgondog
Major
From Dr Price's "The Lufwaffe Data Book"? He has a thorough Order of Battle for the Compositions of the Main Operational Units by Luftflotte and types for 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944 and 1945.
For those that have this research tool we're talking about pages 75-128. If you want different numbers - pick another reference
Having said this here are the preliminary figures for all Luftwaffe Single engine fighters (Me 109 and Fw 190) for ALL fronts for the May snapshots
All
Year S/E Luft3 Reich Total(1) %
1942 945
1943 980 198 207 405 41
1944 1063 115 439 554 52
1. % of ALL operational s/e Fighters in Luftwaffe - not including Italian, Romanian, etc fighters not assigned to a JG.
This does not include the Luft's assigned to Norway, To Italy, to Romania/Hungary/Austria/SW Russia, the W Russia, the NW Russia
These figures do not include any of the Kamp's assigned 190's - this is strictly the total number of Single engine day fighters assignable to attack USAAF bomber and fighter forces from England.
The units deployed in South part of Luftflotten Reich available to Support Lufts from Austria and Italy or attacks into S. Germany from Italy but not counted above as fighter forces from Luftflotten 2 and Kdo Sud Ost were available to resist those.
To our debates regarding 'Ratio's', only the Reich numbers should be used as it can be presumed that Lufflotte 3 *JG/2 and JG26* would have their hands full with P-47's and Spits over France and Lowlands while JG's 1, 3, 5, 11, 27, 53, one gruppe of JG54, JG300, one gruppe of JG301, one gruppe of JG302 comprised Reich.
These data reflect only 'effectives' not 'authorized' based in Germany.
So, these figures represent the Maximum number of Me 109s and Fw190s available to take on Mustang escort for deep penetrations.
Two facts should be considered based on Price's numbers - First, the maximum percentage available to East Front is 48% - and that is only if all of Italy, Norway, Rumania, Austria, Czech and Poland based fighters were applied to fight Soviets and ignored attacks on Ploesti for example by 12 and 15AF. Second, that is a long way from the 85% you cited as fighting on the Ost Front.
Summary May 1, 1944 - 439 Me 109s and Fw190s available within Germany to assist Zerstroyers and the NJG's attacking the bombers. That is more than twice the TOTAL number of Mustangs in ALL the operational Fighter Groups in the entire 8th and 9th and 12th and 15th AF
It seems intuitive that great numerical superiority of German S/E Mustang Killers could be focused on any one or two Mustang groups covering a Task Force. Not saying impossible for Mustang groups always at a disadvantage - but I hope this illustrates why I don't accept the legends of 'swarms of Mustangs attacking us' at face value in every debate.
It seems far less intuitive that smart Luftwaffe controllers continually insisted on attacking with inferior numbers when superior is better AND available.
So, why do you insist on "swarms, greatly outnumber, 8:1, 12:1, etc, Ratios of Mustangs to German Fighters? I have never disputed the fact that the Luftwaffe was outnumbered by USAAF fighters over targets by 1945 - what I do dispute is the notion that the Luftwaffe Fighter Arm took terrible losses from Mustangs during long range escorts Jan-May, 1944 DUE to Numerical Advantage - when it was the Reverse scenario instead.
If you don't like my logic - do your own but don't throw words back from LW fighter pilots trying to explain why they lost control of the air between Jan 1944 and May 1944?
The USAAF Mustangs from England (all the ones available to attack Germany) in those first 5 months were Out Numbered by Germany based Single Engine Fighters. by 10:1 in Jan, 5:1 in Feb by 2:1 in March and 4:3 in April.
Show me your data if I am wrong on the statistics?
Show me the facts on the alleged desparation of Luftwaffe 'climbing to attack' when I believe they mostly were waiting from higher altitude and trying to avoid escort Mustangs altogether, and engage bombers/fighters from above..
Regards
Bill
Totally, the FockeWulfe 190 is probably the best but i'm most experienced in the Yak-3.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Experienced in the Yak-3?
Games + armchair pilots 
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Yep!
Are you talking about video games, because this forum is about real aircraft.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
And you were checked out in it or was an UTI?
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Oh really? And what was that in? An Agcat or a Pawnee?
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Wow - I didn't know anyone was still dusting with Stearmans. Where might this be at?
