Best Fighter in Service Before 1 September 1939

[marshall]

Question is simple. What was the best fighter aircraft in service all over the world before the 1 September 1939?

This question bothers me for some time and I would like to know what other more knowledgeable people than I think about it.

The term 'best' have for me quite wide meaning, so it don't have to always mean performance.

Was it the Messerschmitt Bf 109? Or was it something else? Something American, or maybe British, or French, or Italian, or Japanese, or Russian?

So what is your opinion?

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Spitfire or Bf 109? Maybe the Zero?

Those three seem to be some of the best.

 

[davebender]

The A6M Zero was not yet in service.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Ooops, my bad.

Well I was looking at the Macchi 202, Mig 3, and D.520, but they came around in 1940.

 

[Clay_Allison]

Bf 109. All things being equal I'd rather have one than the Spitfire. In 1939 the Bf-109 had 20mm cannons (the E-3 saw service in the Spanish Civil War). The Spitfire had all .303 MG's.

Planes in service at that time in order of my preference:
1. Messerschmidt Bf 109E
2. Supermarine Spitfire
3. Hawker Hurricane
4. Messerschmidt Bf 110
5. Polikarpov I-16
6. Morane-Saulnier M.S.406
7. F4F Wildcat
8. Nakajima Ki-27
9. Fiat G.50
10. Fokker D.XXI

Honorable Mention: P-36 Hawk, Gloster Gladiator, Fiat CR.42, Seversky P-35, Brewster Buffalo, Fokker G.I,

 

[Kurfürst]

IMHO its pretty simple - Bf 109E-3. It had variable pitch airscrew (Spits and Hurris had only fixed pitch or two pitch props at the time), cannons and all the rest of the goodies, and above all, it was around in the largest numbers of them all - and it was plenty faster than most at most altitudes. Though at this time, none of the major fighters (except perhaps for I-16?) had cocpit armor fitted yet.

 

[Vincenzo]

Bf 109. All things being equal I'd rather have one than the Spitfire. In 1939 the Bf-109 had 20mm cannons (the E-3 saw service in the Spanish Civil War). The Spitfire had all .303 MG's.

Planes in service at that time in order of my preference:
1. Messerschmidt Bf 109E
2. Supermarine Spitfire
3. Hawker Hurricane
4. Messerschmidt Bf 110
5. Polikarpov I-16
6. Morane-Saulnier M.S.406
7. F4F Wildcat
8. Nakajima Ki-27
9. Fiat G.50
10. Fokker D.XXI

Honorable Mention: P-36 Hawk, Gloster Gladiator, Fiat CR.42, Seversky P-35, Brewster Buffalo, Fokker G.I,

F4F was not a 31/08/39 operational fighter same for Buffalo
1. 109 Emil
2. Spit
3. Hurri
4. Hawk 75
5. 110C
6. Ki-27
7. Fokker G.1
8. G. 50
9. I-16
10 M.S.406

list of fighters of august '39, maybe some other in minor countries
(spitfire, hurricane, gladiator, gauntlet, fury, roc, blenheim, P-26, P-35, P-36, FF, F2F, F3F, Ki-10, Ki-27, A4N, A5M, I-15, i-152, I-153, I-16 (until ~type 18), Bf 110C, Bf 109 (until E-3), Spad 510, NiD 622/629, M.S. 406, D.501/510, H.75, Potez 631, C.R. 32, G.50, C.R. 42, P.7, P.11, D XVII, D XXI, G I, Hawk II/III)

 

[Waynos]

Yes, I would agree that the 109E had the edge on the Spitfire (and those two were head and shoulders above everything else) at that point in history, the Spitfire/109 "who's the best" see-saw was about to begin

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

At the start of hostilities in Europe, it is without a doubt the Bf 109E. At that time it had the best combination of armament, speed and maneuverability.

 

[Clay_Allison]

F4F was not a 31/08/39 operational fighter same for Buffalo
1. 109 Emil
2. Spit
3. Hurri
4. Hawk 75
5. 110C
6. Ki-27
7. Fokker G.1
8. G. 50
9. I-16
10 M.S.406

list of fighters of august '39, maybe some other in minor countries
(spitfire, hurricane, gladiator, gauntlet, fury, roc, blenheim, P-26, P-35, P-36, FF, F2F, F3F, Ki-10, Ki-27, A4N, A5M, I-15, i-152, I-153, I-16 (until ~type 18), Bf 110C, Bf 109 (until E-3), Spad 510, NiD 622/629, M.S. 406, D.501/510, H.75, Potez 631, C.R. 32, G.50, C.R. 42, P.7, P.11, D XVII, D XXI, G I, Hawk II/III)

You are right about the F4F, wrong about the buffalo. my information has the BRewster delivered in April 1939 so...

Planes in service at that time in order of my preference:
1. Messerschmidt Bf 109E
2. Supermarine Spitfire
3. Hawker Hurricane
4. Messerschmidt Bf 110
5. Polikarpov I-16
6. Morane-Saulnier M.S.406
7. Nakajima Ki-27
8. Fiat G.50
9. Fokker D.XXI
10. Brewster Buffalo

In 1939 the Hawk 75 has all of two machine guns on it, one 50 and one 30. That's pathetic, I don't know what you'd be expected to shoot down with that.

 

[Vincenzo]

2 mg in '39 was a common weaponry, but the french hawk75 had 4 7,5 mm (imho is best a .5 and a .30 in nose) (ki-27 G.50 i-16 (not all) and also the orginal buffalo have 2 mgs)

for buffalo http://www.warbirdforum.com/f2a1.htm
you can see first delivery to navy 10/06/39 first delivery to squadron 11/12/39

 

[michaelmaltby]

"..At the start of hostilities in Europe, it is without a doubt the Bf 109E. At that time it had the best combination of armament, speed and maneuverability..."

" ..the Spitfire/109 "who's the best" see-saw was about to begin.."

Totally agree.

MM

 

[billswagger]

Spitfires and 109Es, but prior to the spitfire, id have to give it to the Hurricane.

 

[Clay_Allison]

2 mg in '39 was a common weaponry, but the french hawk75 had 4 7,5 mm (imho is best a .5 and a .30 in nose) (ki-27 G.50 i-16 (not all) and also the orginal buffalo have 2 mgs)

for buffalo http://www.warbirdforum.com/f2a1.htm
you can see first delivery to navy 10/06/39 first delivery to squadron 11/12/39

I could forgive the only two MGs if they were at least both .50s

 

[FLYBOYJ]

IMHO its pretty simple - Bf 109E-3. It had variable pitch airscrew (Spits and Hurris had only fixed pitch or two pitch props at the time), cannons and all the rest of the goodies, and above all, it was around in the largest numbers of them all - and it was plenty faster than most at most altitudes. Though at this time, none of the major fighters (except perhaps for I-16?) had cocpit armor fitted yet.

The Hawk 75A did well in French hands against -109 variants during the battle of France. Although we could dispute claims, actual victories and losses, the bottom line is it could compete with the Bf 109E, at least in the manner the LW was operating against this aircraft. From Wiki but I seen other data from what I would call more reliable sources.

"On 8 September 1939, aircraft from Groupe de Chasse II/4 were credited with shooting down two Luftwaffe Messerschmitt Bf 109Es, the first Allied air victory of World War II on the Western front. During 1939–1940, French pilots claimed 230 confirmed and 80 probable victories in H75s against only 29 aircraft lost in aerial combat. Of the 11 French aces of the early part of the war, seven flew H75s. The leading ace of the time was Lieutenant Edmond Marin la Meslée with 15 confirmed and five probable victories in the type. H75-equipped squadrons were evacuated to French North Africa before the Armistice to avoid capture by the Germans. While under the Vichy government, these units clashed with British aircraft over Mers el-Kébir and Dakar. During Operation Torch in North Africa, French H75s fought against U.S. Navy F4F Wildcats, losing 15 aircraft to seven shot down American planes."

 

[Clay_Allison]

I guess with french guns the Hawk-75 wasn't bad. Imagine what it would have done with a single 20mm H.S. 404.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I guess with french guns the Hawk-75 wasn't bad. Imagine what it would have done with a single 20mm H.S. 404.

Hard to say. It did not have a high powered engine when compared to the 109 but was supposedly quite maneuverable and I think the 109s it came up against tried to dogfight it rather than use "zoom and boom." I don't know what its dive performance was like but I think on take off it was about 1000 pounds lighter than the 109E.

 

[Clay_Allison]

Hard to say. It did not have a high powered engine when compared to the 109 but was supposedly quite maneuverable and I think the 109s it came up against tried to dogfight it rather than use "zoom and boom." I don't know what its dive performance was like but I think on take off it was about 1000 pounds lighter than the 109E.

If you got right on someone's tail in a turn-fight with a 20mm cannon you'd have yourself one dead 109E. The Emil was tough enough to take a few 7.5mm rounds.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

IMO the Hawk 75 was the most under rated figher of WW2, at least during the first half.

 

[Clay_Allison]

IMO the Hawk 75 was the most under rated figher of WW2, at least during the first half.

You can't dispute that the prewar American armament for it was an unfunny joke though. A .30 and a .50? What? no .22?