Best Fighter in Service Before 1 September 1939

[Civettone]

Hope to see some more input from you in the future, Altea!


And eum, the He 100D was delivered before WW2. So one could say it counts. Sure, it wasn't operational but still ...

Kris

 

[Waynos]

For a long time it was thought the He 100 had entered services, though it was reported as the He113. RAF pilots even filed comnbat reports where they described dogfighting it! Such is the fog of war. But at least it existed, another frequently reported fighter, the Fw198, was a complete figment of the imagination.

 

[Vincenzo]

Of course

Istrebitel' I-16 - Mikhail Maslov - Exprint
I-5, I-15, I-15bis- Polygon 1
Encyclopédie illustrée de l'aviation - Editions Atlas
Soviet air force fighters -W Green, G swanborough- Putnam and Jane's
Poslednye istrebiteli Polikarpova I-18a, I-185 – Yoori Googlya - Arkhivpress Kiev
Istrebitel' I-16 - Mikhail Maslov – Armada
Les avions de chasse Polikarpov – Herbert Leonard – ouest france
Polikarpov Fighters in action part II, - squadron signal 162
L'aviation de chasse républicaine espagnole – Juan Arraez Cerda- -Avions HS 3
Les faucons de Staline -Kosminkov-Hazanov- Hors série Fanatique de l'aviation
V nebe Ispanii 1936-1939ie gody - S Abrosov – Moskva 2003
Le Polikarpov I-16 – Christophe Cony – Avions
Polikarpov I-16 fighter Its foreruners and progeny -Red star 3 -Yefim Gordon and K dexter;- Midland Publishing
POLIKARPOV I-16 -P. Laurreau, J. Arraez Cerda, S. Soulard, G. Duranthie-Éditions J. Kytka-English version translated by Brinsley Best...
....

And classics...
Samoletostroenie part 1
Shavrov Part1 История конструкций самолетов в СССР до 1938...
... i probably miss some of them. But never forget to be aware browsing some russian forums as airforce.ru, Sukhoi.ru,13th airbase Glasnet .ru, airpages ru where you can find a lot of great specialists of the question...

Regards

Altea

Thank you
for true for Shavrov part 1, I-16 type 6 there is "И-16, тип 6 — серийный, как и тип 5, но с двигателем М-25А в 730 л. с. и с двумя пулеметами." and speed indicated are not the same but not away from my link so it's no so bad

 

[Elvis]

for true for Shavrov part 1, I-16 type 6 there is "И-16, тип 6 — серийный, как и тип 5, но с двигателем М-25А в 730 л. с. и с двумя пулеметами." and speed indicated are not the same but not away from my link so it's no so bad.

...and for those of us who don't speak Russian, that translates to "I-16, type 6 - serial, like type 5, but with the engine M-25A at 730 liters. with. and with two machine guns."

However, it's 730HP, or in metric-speak, 537KW. Not "730 litres".
A "Litre" is a measurement of displacement, which in this case is 29.8.

Here's a quick rundown of the different varients, from Military Factory's I-16 page.

TsKB-12 - Prototype Model Designation fitted with M-22 radial piston engine generating 480hp.
TsKB-12bis - Second Prototype Model Designation with improved performance and uprated Wright SR-1820-F3 Cyclone powerplant.
I-16 Type 1 - Base Pre-Production Model Designation fitted with M-22; 10 produced.
I-16 Type 4 - Fitted with imported-Cyclone powerplant.
I-16 Type 5 - M-25 700hp license-built Cyclone powerplant; improved armor.
I-16 Type 6 - Initial Major Production Variant fitted with M-25A 730hp powerplant.
I-16 Type 10 - Fitted with M-25V 750hp powerplant; 4 x 7.62mm machine guns.
I-16 Type 17 - Provision for six 82mm rockets; 2 x 20mm cannons in place of standard machine guns; reinforced structure throughout.
I-16 Type 18 - M-62 radial piston engine generating 920hp; 4 x 7.62mm machine guns.
I-16 Type 24 - M-62 OR M-63 radial piston engines delivering 1,000hp and 1,,100hp respectively; reinforced wing elements; 4 x 7.62mm machine guns.
I-16 Type 28 - Fitted with M-63 radial piston engine.
I-16 Type 30 - Fitted with M-63 radial piston engine.
I-16 SPB - Dive Bomber Variant
I-16UTI - Dual-Control Trainer Model



Elvis

 

[Altea]

...and for those of us who don't speak Russian, that translates to "I-16, type 6 - serial, like type 5, but with the engine M-25A at 730 liters. with. and with two machine guns."

However, it's 730HP, or in metric-speak, 537KW. Not "730 litres".

No . двигателем М-25А в 730 л. с : l.c for loshadinyx sil : horse power



Here's a quick rundown of the different varients, from Military Factory's I-16 page.

TsKB-12 - Prototype Model Designation fitted with M-22 radial piston engine generating 480hp.
TsKB-12bis - Second Prototype Model Designation with improved performance and uprated Wright SR-1820-F3 Cyclone powerplant.
I-16 Type 1 - Base Pre-Production Model Designation fitted with M-22; 10 produced.

The I-16 tip 1 never existed

I-16 Type 4 - Fitted with imported-Cyclone powerplant.

Not exactly: tip 4 because the Polikarpov I-16 was the fourth type of plane produced at Zavod 21 at Nizhny Novgorod in 1934. 400 built in 34-35-36 with M-22 (but might be some exeptions, i mean with M-25)
production numbers 4 21 xxxx.
Note the I-16 produced at Zavod 39 in Moscow the same year 123901 to 123950, had no tip mention at all. 12 for TsKB-12, 39 for Zavod 01 to 50 serial numbers. Those had imported wright cyclones.

I-16 Type 5 - M-25 700hp license-built Cyclone powerplant; improved armor.

Armor was still in the tip 4, but was "lost" somewere during production process.

I-16 Type 6 - Initial Major Production Variant fitted with M-25A 730hp powerplant.

It's often used in litterature to design late I-16 tip 5, since the type was still produced in 1939.
No serial number 6 21 xxxx was founded anywere. Ohhh ...yes, it was ...but applied to the DIT.

I-16 Type 10 - Fitted with M-25V 750hp powerplant; 4 x 7.62mm machine guns.

No, early tip 10 were builded with a M-25A, like the 1938th tip 5. Late tip 5 had the M-25V, of course, cause in 1939 the M 25A was no more produced.
Moroever first I-16 to carry the M62, were some simply some tip 10 retrofitted with this engine in Khalkin Gol.

I-16 Type 17 - Provision for six 82mm rockets; 2 x 20mm cannons in place of standard machine guns; reinforced structure throughout.

The Tip 17 was the tip 10 airframe variant fitted with canons.
You forgot the tip 12, that was the tip 5 variant fitted with the same 20 canons

I-16 Type 18 - M-62 radial piston engine generating 920hp; 4 x 7.62mm machine guns.

I-16 Type 24 - M-62 OR M-63 radial piston engines delivering 1,000hp and 1,,100hp respectively; reinforced wing elements; 4 x 7.62mm machine guns.

It's supposed to have only the M 63, but due to some engine developpement problems, M-63 were either replaced either modified to M 62 standards on some planes.

I-16 Type 28 - Fitted with M-63 radial piston engine.

It was the canon armed variant of the tip 24.
You forgot to mention the tip 27, the canon armed variant of the tip 18.

I-16 Type 30 - Fitted with M-63 radial piston engine.

Never existed, tip 29 maybe...

I-16 SPB - Dive Bomber Variant

Non serial. There were plenty of experimental polikarpov I-16 types. Some of them saw little production.

I-16UTI - Dual-Control Trainer Model

Never existed. You have the UTI-2 (also called tip 14) model in 1935 produced at ~ 100 units
UTI-4 (tip 15) in 1937 a real success story produced at 3 189 units from 1938 to 1942!

Regards

Arsenal

 

[Vincenzo]

Altea, please, for help me in research can give russian name of your russian source

 

[Altea]

Altea, please, for help me in research can give russian name of your russian source

Unfortunately i don't have cyrillic on my PC. Well i have but it bugs. So browse russian sites like airwar.ru or airpages.ru, and "cut" references from there.

For instance at ?-16

Источники

"История конструкций самолетов в СССР,1938-1950гг." /В.Б. Шавров/
"Самолеты сталинских соколов" /К. Косминков, Д. Гринюк/
"Истребитель И-16." /Михаил Маслов/; приложение к журналу "М-ХОББИ", №2 1997 г.
"Истребитель И-16." /"Война в воздухе" № 41,42,43./
"Советские самолеты" /А.С. Яковлев/

or have a look at commercial sites

www.Aviapress.com: plastic model kits, military books and magazines - the choice of the whole internet


but please avoid as much as you can squadron signal series for soviet planes. Plenty of flood, errors, clichés , pure inventions and prejudices off all kinds...

Regards

 

[Civettone]

Altea, wasn't there also a I-16 Sturmovik version ??


Kris

 

[Vincenzo]

Altea, wasn't there also a I-16 Sturmovik version ??


Kris

do you talking of 20 mm variants?

 

[Altea]

Hello

Altea, wasn't there also a I-16 Sturmovik version ??


Kris

There were several sturmovik versions derivated from the I-16.

First you had the TsKB-18 project in 1934. It was a derivative of Polikarpov tip 4, with increased wing span to 10m, armored cockpit and 4 ShKAS or PV-1 machine guns and 100kg bombs (it's unclear if there were provision for 2 x 100kg bombs, or 100 kg in total). One tested from spring 1935 with inconclusive results. Supposingly due to it's weak M-22, lost Shturmovik competition against the Yatsenko DI-6. Moroever in 1935 zavod 19 delivered more than 600 M-25 (licence buil WC 1820) engines, and some guenine american Wright Cyclones from imported kits.

So two tip 5 were transformed in 1936 and fitted with 6 ShKAS, that could be inclinated at 20° for ground fire, non serial.

Vincenzo

do you talking of 20 mm variants?

Nothing common, except the I-16. The canon fitted I-16 was called TsKB-12P (Pushka = Canon) project. It was a I-16 tip 5, with 2 ShVAK canons and 2 ShKAS in the wings. Tested from july to september 1936. Produced from 1937 in zavod 21 as Polikarpov I-16 tip 12.

But we have already treated that subject.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/av...e-1-september-1939-a-20093-13.html#post551185

The Tip 17 was the tip 10 airframe variant fitted with canons.
You forgot the tip 12, that was the tip 5 variant fitted with the same 20 canons

I-16 Type 28 - Fitted with M-63 radial piston engine.

It was the canon armed variant of the tip 24.
You forgot to mention the tip 27, the canon armed variant of the tip 18.

I just mention that heavily armed soviet monoplanes I-16P or Tupolev I-14 and Grigorovitch IP-1 with recoilness APK 37- 76 mm Kurchevski canons were primary intended to fight against heavy planes as Tupolev TB-3, not ground targets.



At the end of 1937, was flyng the experimental SN° 9211, with 6 wing ShKASes with possibility to inclinate them at 9°, provision for 6 25 kg bombs and fixed main gears.
Curiously it's quoted as Polikarpov I-16 tip 11 by the main I-16 specialist Mikhail Maslov. But serial rather number seemes to design a I-16 tip 9. Why not? Maybe the tip 9 was the prototype for the hypothetical Polikarpov I-16 tip 11 serie. Whatever this last attempt to make a Shturmovik from the I-16 was never produced.

Some images about the 9211 shturmovik version

and it's pivotable ShKAS battery.

Regards

Altea

 

[Elvis]

Altea,

You should write to Military Factory and Google and let them know about those errors.

...btw, which of the I-16 fighter varients was most numerous during WWII?



Elvis

 

[Vincenzo]

Altea,

You should write to Military Factory and Google and let them know about those errors.

...btw, which of the I-16 fighter varients was most numerous during WWII?



Elvis

i think the error are comon of english (old) source, talking of not "english speaking" aircrafts

 

[Altea]

Altea,

You should write to Military Factory and Google and let them know about those errors.

first, it's not my buisiness,
secund, it often has no effect: some redactors are as much hopeless as pretentious. See squadron signal 162 book as example of shame. Of course nobody's perfect, and errare humanum est. But NOT at virtually every sentence! Perseverare diabolicum . No excuses to that bullshit, it was published during glasnost-perestroïka period, when soviet archives were open about more than 10 years.
I don't make illusions any more about human kind.

...btw, which of the I-16 fighter varients was most numerous during WWII?

Without any doubt the UTI-4: 3189 built from 1938 to 1942

see table from:

Èñòðåáèòåëü È-16 - - Ìîäèôèêàöèè

year: 1938 1939 1940 1941 1942 Total
type 5: 274 53 0 0 0 327
тип 10: 508 426 0 0 0 934
тип 12: 12 0 0 0 0 12
тип 15: (УТИ-4) 352 635 1103 1016 83 3189
тип 17: 27 314 0 0 0 341
тип 18: 0 177 0 0 0 177
тип 24: 0 155 760 19 0 934
тип 27: 0 59 0 0 0 59
тип 28: 0 16 277 0 0 293
тип 29: 0 0 570 80 0 650

Then the last 24,27, 28,29 types

btw i don't advice you to trust that site too much in other aspects, since it's from Mikhail Maslov book of 1997 Armada, with a lot of errors, corrected in the 2005th Exprint edition

Regards

 

[vikingBerserker]

That's great info, thanks Altea!

 

[Altea]

Hello,

Since there is a kind of opinion poll here, i would quote first:

Bf 109E
Spit mkI


and alltogether

Curtss H75, Morane MS-406, Polikarpov I-16 tip18, I-153, Fiat G-50, Hurricane mkI.

With some nuances. Pilot for pilot, if being very experienced one i would choose unstable and very nervous I-16. In other cases lazy Hurricane, well balanced MS-406 or easy I-153 for a rookie. It gives more chances to survive.

 

[Elvis]

...it's not my buisiness...

Altea,

First off, thank you for answering my question. I do appreciate the effort.
Second, you do what you want, but you made it your business when you tore my post apart.
If you know the information is incorrect, or outdated, I would think the people who run those sites would want to know that.
Could be that they already know, but have forgotten to update the page.
Your email could serve as a kindly reminder.


Elvis

 

[Altea]

Altea, please, for help me in research can give russian name of your russian source

Sorry for being late. My sources:

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=15&u=13426640

I think the best book for the I-16 should be the corrected edition in french and english I-16, a revolutionnary plane in Kytka editions, in some mounths...The old one is close to the Maslov's 1997 armada variant.

 

[Tzaw1]

You can see too:

 

[Vincenzo]

happy to see so many material, but there is a trouble as i writing in cyrillic with latin keyboard?

 

[Altea]

You can see too:

I wouldn't advice Voina v Vozduke 137, it seems to be a cpoy paste from squadron signal. The others books are very good. Maybe Mikhail Maslov's book need to be updated (in operationnal). Technical is perfect as usual.

happy to see so many material, but there is a trouble as i writing in cyrillic with latin keyboard?

Try with Lexilogos keyboard

Clavier russe cyrillique en ligne - LEXILOGOS >>

Regards