Best flying boats, from War over the Wine Dark Sea

[Schweik]

According to Wiki, Walruses have saved over one thousand lives in SAR operations in RAF. Probably some more in other air forces.
Not bad. They certainly deserve honorary mention.

You could say the same about a lot of the smaller float planes like the Vought OS2U, Grumman J2F, Heinkel He 59, IMAM Ro 43, Aichi E-13A and so on. They all rescued a lot of airmen, performed useful scouting and so on. But it's just a different category from a big full sized flying boat with a different kind of mission profile and role in the war.

And as I've mentioned before, in actual combat rescue scenarios such as described in Shores MAW, the Walrus seems to have often failed in it's job due to difficulty taking off in rough seas.

 

[Piper106]

One issue that needs to be discussed is that some flying boats were much better than others on rough water. For example, the PBY Catalina and the Dornier Do 24 were both superb boats, which was probably why the Do 24 was used for rescue into the Fifties despite the problem of parts. For the Japanese, the H8K has much better performance statistics than the H6K but the H6K was safer to land in a storm.

Interested if anyone has comments on the ability of some of the other flyboats in the poll to handle rough water or inversely types that maybe flew good, but didn't handle well on rough water, or fell apart quickly when they would get hammered by the waves..

 

[cherry blossom]

I feel embarrassed that I may have been wrong about the Kawanishi H8K Emily. I knew that the first prototype had dangerous characteristics but the hull shape was changed before the H8K1 was accepted for production. I also knew that the two K8Ks attempting to take Admiral Koga and his staff from Palau to the Philippines were lost in a typhoon with one at least failing in an attempted landing but, on reflection, I doubt if any other flying boat would have landed successfully in such conditions. The H8K has a much higher wing loading than the H6K, so it is again plausible that it has a higher stall speed, although its flaps may be better, and thus the H8K will hit waves harder in a landing on rough seas. However, the H8K may be stronger and still able to land in the same sea state. I haven't been able to find any direct comparison online (I have only searched in English). There is some information about American trials of a H8K2 at Patuxent River in 1946 at Hampton Roads Naval Museum: Forty Years Ago: "Emily," the Last of Her Kind, Returns to Japan. It is notable that the pilot was able to land from the only flight after two of the engines had failed. There was subsequently an extended set of taxing trials but I have not found any conclusions.

When I posted, I suspect that I was dimly remembering the discussion at So ...what was the most Seaworthy flying boat? (and a few stories). Another source praising the PBY with some anecdotes is Cat Tales: The story of World War II's PBY Flying Boat.

 

[Schweik]

It's a good point about the seaworthiness of the flying boats etc. I know that the Martin PBM reportedly suffered a lot of accidents and in particular was known to sometimes dunk the nose in water landings. A design flaw. On paper it looks much better than a PBY but that issue probably tips the merit in the other direction, and it's probably why the PBY is famous and the PBM rarely discussed.

For a flying boat to sink in Typhoon is no reflection on it's seaworthiness though, a Typhoon can sink a warship.

 

[michael rauls]

Lots of great info in this thread. Admittedly not a subject I known alot about but it's fascinating to learn. I just voted for the PBY and Mavis because to the best of my knowledge they were effective in there roles whatever there performance characteristics.

 

[Schweik]

some nice footage here of a few of the weirder outliers among the flying boats. I had never heard of this ridiculous thing the Tupolev ANT-22, a magnificent example of Soviet aircraft gigantism in the 30's

 

[Schweik]

Found four more interesting early war float / seaplanes. most of these were made in the 30's but saw some action during the war.

Dornier Do 18 - 170 built, from 1935.
A development of the earlier Do 16 / Do J "Wal" and just based on looks, I suspect an ancestor of the Do 24. Though obsolete by 1940 it was used during the war for recon, air sea rescue and etc., there was still a squadron of them flying in 1941. Got into at least two engagements, shooting down a Fokker T.VIII (in a possible case of mistaken identity, before the Dutch were in the War) and one force landed after a scrap with Blakburn Skuas of the HMS Ark Royal.
Specs 160 mph, 2,200 mile range, 2 x LMG, 2 x 100 kg bombs.

Dornier Do 22 - 30 built, from 1938
A seaplane torpedo bomber, made mostly for the export market. I discovered it while reading about the Hellenic Air Force. It was also used by Finland, Latvia and Yugoslavia. Eight of the Yugoslavian aircraft joined the RAF in Egypt and saw action there through the mid war. Four were used by Finland and also saw action.
Specs 220 mph, range 1,400 miles, 3 x LMG, 1 x 1,800 lb torpedo or 4 x 110 lb bombs.

Fokker T.VIII - 36 built, from 1938
Another seaplane torpedo bomber, made by Fokker and used mostly by foreign operators including both the Luftwaffe (in the Med) and the RAF (in the North sea) mostly for recon and air rescue. Was involved in two daring escapes, one during the invasion of Holland with 2 MP's escaping, and another by some Dutch resistance folks during the occupation in May 1941 (they managed to fly right into Britain past the air defenses and land on a British field). As you can see and typical of Fokker it's a very nice looking plane and quite a promising design though it only had 450 hp engines.
Specs 177 mph, Range 1,710 miles, 2 x LMG, 1,300 lb bombs or torpedoes (stored internally).

Fiat RS.14 - 186 built from 1939
Long range recon and ASW float plane. Another very nice looking bird. Stayed in service into 1948 so it was probably pretty good. Surprised I had never heard of it. Used by the Italians in the Med (flown from Italy, Sicily and Sardinia)

Specs 242 mph, range 1,550 miles, 1 x HMG + 2 x LMG, 882 lb bomb load

 

[Schweik]

Another image of a Fit RS 14 (proptotype?) looking very clean

 

[cherry blossom]

I have finally decided to vote. The best flying boats for safe operation in areas where you do not expect to encounter enemy aircraft are the PBY and the Do-24 and I have chosen the Do-24 because its extra power allowed it to take off from very restricted areas of water such as lakes and rivers as described by Eric Brown. However, the PBY was a superb design.

If you want to go where you may encounter enemy aircraft, it is a different story. The H6K may have two thirds of the wing loading of an H8K and thus be easier to land but the IJN was replacing the H6K by the H8K because the H6K was very vulnerable. There is an account of a meeting between a H6K and a B-17 off Guadalcanal at Type 97 Flying boat vs B-17 to illustrate the vulnerability. Adding guns, armour and self-sealing fuel tanks added weight but was obviously necessary.

One could argue that sending large flying boats out to search for the enemy fleet by day was a losing game and that the IJN should have politely asked the Japanese Army if they could buy some Ki-46 reconnaissance aircraft The Pacific War Online Encyclopedia: Ki-46 "Dinah", Japanese Reconnaissance Aircraft. They might have had to build a version 2.5 by fitting the extra fuel tank of the Ki-46 III and using Kinsei 50 series engines (used by the last H6Ks).

However, flying boats have advantages as your runway is not vulnerable to enemy bombs and adding flying boats to an island's defences allows other aircraft to use an airfield if one exists (Midway was a good example with the PBYs using the atoll). Thus I am going to offer a second hesitant vote for the H8K as the flying boat to use if you fear meeting enemy aircraft.

 

[cherry blossom]

A vote of confidence in the Do-24 was the development around 1980 of the Dornier Do-24 ATT which retained most of the original hull and tail married to a new super critical wing carrying three Pratt & Whitney PT6A-45B turboprops. Alas there was no commercial interest but the prototype looks good or .

 

[Schweik]

Oh yeah, I'm a fan!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Most beautiful flying boat ever made...

 

[michael rauls]

It is quite the looker.

 

[Sid327]

Interesting story Type 97 Flying boat vs B-17

But find this a bit hard to believe (second to last sentence at the bottom of the page):-

"...These conversions amounted to 1.5 tons in additional weight, but this did not affect speed and range performance...."


The Blohm & Voss BV138 (which isn't included in the poll) Blohm & Voss BV 138 - Wikipedia

As a matter of interest, used Junkers Jumo D205 diesel engines. Description here:

This type of engine that's mentioned in the video powered the British Chieftain MBT though the Brits only managed to get 650hp out of the early production engines (D205 was good for 868hp). Later development for the L60 saw this upped to a reportedly reliable 840hp. Leyland L60 - Wikipedia

Apologies for the thread meandering a bit.

 

[Schweik]

BV 138 wasn't in the poll because I put it in another class. It's not so much a flying boat as a seaplane scout (arguably). Mainly just because of size.

 

[Shortround6]

BV 138 wasn't in the poll because I put it in another class. It's not so much a flying boat as a seaplane scout (arguably). Mainly just because of size.

Are we talking about the same plane??

88ft 5 in wing span
1210 sq ft of wing area,
Normal gross weight 31,967 lb
Max take-off weight 38,912 lb

 

[Schweik]

Are we talking about the same plane??

88ft 5 in wing span
1210 sq ft of wing area,
Normal gross weight 31,967 lb
Max take-off weight 38,912 lb

Indeed! Compare the H8K

124' wing span
1,700 sq ft wing area
Gross weight 54,013 lb
Max takeoff weight 71,650 lb

Not to mention a range of 4,000 miles vs. 760 miles for the BV 138

Sunderland (112' wingspan, 1780 mile range), PBY (104' span, 2,420 mile range), are all similarly larger and longer ranged. The Do 24 is relatively small as well but boasts an 1,800 mile range putting it firmly in the true 'flying boat' category.

Which is admittedly arbitrary, but there are easily 100 aircraft that you could fit into the critieria of "seaplane / float plane / flying boat that saw action in WW2" - way too many for a poll, so I made this one about specifically the larger and more long legged category. No doubt there is some overlap.

 

[GrauGeist]

Indeed! Compare the H8K

124' wing span
1,700 sq ft wing area
Gross weight 54,013 lb
Max takeoff weight 71,650 lb

Not to mention a range of 4,000 miles vs. 760 miles for the BV 138

Sunderland (112' wingspan, 1780 mile range), PBY (104' span, 2,420 mile range), are all similarly larger and longer ranged. The Do 24 is relatively small as well but boasts an 1,800 mile range putting it firmly in the true 'flying boat' category.

Which is admittedly arbitrary, but there are easily 100 aircraft that you could fit into the critieria of "seaplane / float plane / flying boat that saw action in WW2" - way too many for a poll, so I made this one about specifically the larger and more long legged category. No doubt there is some overlap.

Lest we forget that the Bv222 not only had an operational range of close to 3,000 miles, it is the largest aircraft in history to ever engage and down enemy aircraft.

 

[Schweik]

Indeed! Very big bird.

The BV 222 history is pretty well documented in the wiki.

V1 flew 17 dangerous supply flights from Greece to North Africa for the Afrika Korps, before being damaged in a landing (hitting an underwater object) and wrecked.

V2 was used in the Arctic and survived the war.

V3 and V5 were bombed in 1943 by Mosquitoes.

V4 flew the transport flights to Africa. This is also the one which shot down the PB4Y-1 in that crazy fight. It was scuttled by it's crew at the end of the war.

V6 was shot down by a Beaufighter in Dec 1942 while flying the Afrika Korps supply run (would love to read a detailed account of that fight!)

V7 also made it through the war and was scuttled by it's crew in 1945.

C-09 was strafed and destroyed by a Typhoon in 1942.

C-10 was shot down by a Mosquito in 1944 (another fight I'd like to read about!)

C-12 was captured by the British and tested at Felixtowe, one was flown by Eric "Winkle" Brown. Then they filled it with trash and scuttled it in Trondheimsfjord. They may raise it and restore it.

C-11 and C-13 were captured by the US and tested. It was reportedly plagued with engine fires.

 

[michael rauls]

Holly mackerel that thing was huge. I've seen pictures of it before but never with anything of known size next to it for a reference so never got an idea of just how big.