Best infantry from 1720-1820.

[pbfoot]

With respect to the British they got beaten twice (war of independence and 1812) and only won once (7 years war). .

from the viewpoint here you lost War of 1812 one of the goals was freeing us poor Canadians from the Brits and at that you failed, also recall that Britain was fighting the French at the same time

 

[BombTaxi]

Hmm, I struggle to see how the war of 1812 was a British defeat. British troops occupied Washington and New Orleans and prevented a US invasion of Canada. That's a strange kind of defeat IMHO. It is true that the Rn suffered heavily at sea, but the actions against the US Navy did not have much effect in terms of damaging the far more important maritime war against France, which was still successfully prosecuted despite the tactical victories scored by the Americans.

 

[vikingBerserker]

I think War of 1812 was more of a draw then anything else.

 

[Amsel]

The War of 1812 may have been of no consequence or matter to the British but to Americans it meant alot. The British had their hands full with the French at the time, and Americans were able to protect the Lousiana Purchase. As a matter in fact the Battle of New Orleans was celebrated for years. In 1959 Jimmie Driftwood topped the Billboard charts with the traditional fiddle tune "8th of January" to the song "Battle of New Orleans". About the American volunteers who fought in Louisiana.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKk3Q8CgNCE

 

[vikingBerserker]

Yes it was an incredible battle and a great victory for American no doubt about it.

However the Treaty of Ghent stipulated that borders would return to where they were before the war and none of the root causes of the war were ever even addressed by it.

I had no idea that Jimmie Driftwood had written/sung the song. I do remember Johnny Horton singing it - still have the album I believe.

 

[GrauGeist]

I've always liked the song by Johnny Horton!

The Americans besting the British forces in the War of 1812 may have been looked at as a draw but in reality, it was a victory for the Continentals in a few respects.

For the second time in a generation, a small nation was able to go head to head with a global empire and not only survive the encounter, but walk away with concessions.

Another aspect of the victory would be the political recognition that the Americans were capable of being a part of the world stage, and not just a small country out in the sticks somewhere.

 

[Amsel]

Very true. It also jumpstarted the US peacetime spending, bolstering the economy and like Grau pointed raised the public opinion of the US in the world.

 

[pbfoot]

I guess one of us has revisionist history but this says it best for me
"To America's leaders in 1812, an invasion of Canada seemed to be "a mere matter of marching," as Thomas Jefferson confidently predicted. How could a nation of 8 million fail to subdue a struggling colony of 300,000? Yet, when the campaign of 1812 ended, the only Americans left on Canadian soil were prisoners of war. Three American armies had been forced to surrender, and the British were in control of all of Michigan Territory and much of Indiana and Ohio"
Please understand I live in the middle of the Niagara Frontier within 10 miles I have the battle fields in Chippawa, Queenston heights, Ft George, Newark, Ft Erie and others and I can literally throw a rock from my house and hit the Lundys Lane Battlefield, scene of the bloodiest fight in the war

 

[Amsel]

The year 1813 saw a more sober US strategy of winning control of the Great Lakes, the key to their defeats of the previous year. A US force took York (modern Toronto) and Newark, looted them, and burned the government buildings, something they were to regret. In September under Cdre Perry they won by far the most significant naval engagement of the war against a British flotilla of equal strength on Lake Erie, enabling them to reverse the land results of the previous year. Two British invasions of Ohio failed and at the battle of the Thames east of Detroit, the Americans caught up with the retreating Anglo-Indian army and trounced it, killing (and skinning) Tecumseh, who had earlier suggested that the British commander should wear petticoats. Elsewhere skirmishing characterized by incompetence when not treasonable corruption left the British controlling much of the frontier.

In the south, with little assistance from the British save for the use of Pensacola as a base of operations for escaped slaves and Indians, later to be called Seminoles, some of the Creek people fought their own war 1813-14 until Andrew Jackson instilled some order in the militia rabble under his command by executing one of them, and destroyed the Creeks at Horseshoe Bend in March 1814. Among those under his command were Crockett and Sam Houston, later heroes of Texas independence.

But 1813 had witnessed the turning point at sea, with the British sailing in convoys and sending several new squadrons, one of which ravaged the Chesapeake Bay area. The blockade began to bite and unleashed violent inflation in the USA, while the commander of the USS Chesapeake chose to accept a challenge to single combat by HMS Shannon, which unknown to him had been up-gunned, and was defeated and killed in a 15-minute engagement. The USS Essex was also tracked down and captured in the Pacifics after a very successful year of commerce-raiding, but it was the privateers who kept the stars and stripes on the high seas, boldly sailing around the British Isles and capturing merchant ships by the hundred and even defeating the occasional small warship.

With the abdication of Napoleon in April 1814, the British were able to release more ships and regular troops for the war in America, their numbers rising to about 40, 000. But the US army was able to match these numbers and, under the pressure of war, had shed incompetent commanders and promoted able ones such as Winfield Scott who, although he was nearly killed at Lundy's Lane in July, had drilled his men so well that they fought the British regulars to a standstill. Things went less well elsewhere, with a punitive amphibious operation in the Chesapeake returning the favour for Newark and York by burning Washington and then bombarding Baltimore. More significant was the capture of eastern Maine and the unilateral surrender of a number of New England islands and ports, which were delighted to be able to resume trade in exchange for swearing an oath of allegiance to the crown or otherwise betraying their country. US public finance had collapsed and the Royal Navy, paying in cash, was better able to supply itself from American farmers and merchants than were the US forces offering promissory notes.

The peace negotiations at Ghent that ran from August until Christmas Eve 1814 were a game of bluff and counter-bluff. Wellington, asked to command the forces in America, put his finger on the loss of control of the Great Lakes as the Achilles' heel of the British position, so naturally the British mounted their last big offensive in the south under the command of his brother-in-law Pakenham, who launched a frontal attack across a river and into field fortifications manned by men who could shoot, and was killed along with 1, 500 of his men (a further 500 surrendered) at the battle of New Orleans on 8 January 1815. On 21 February the last men to die in the war were the ringleaders of a mutiny by Tennessee militia in September the previous year, shot by the implacable Jackson, although by that time Congress had hastily ratified the Treaty of Ghent, which restored the status quo ante bellum.

Hickey, Donald R., The War of 1812: A Short History (Urbana, Ill., 1995)

We and the rest of the world considered it a victory at the time but obviously those loyal to the crown didn't.

 

[pbfoot]

I'll get that book but might I suggest in return to try and get
The Invasion of Canada, and Flames Across the Border by Pierre Berton

 

[renrich]

PB, in some ways I envy you. That must be beautiful country you live in and with your interests, there must be a sense of history everywhere in your neighborhood. I now live in country where General Crook campaigned against the Apache but of course it is much more recent history and not nearly as momentus in terms of world history. Was not Winfield Scott present at Lundy's Lane?

 

[pbfoot]

PB, in some ways I envy you. That must be beautiful country you live in and with your interests, there must be a sense of history everywhere in your neighborhood. I now live in country where General Crook campaigned against the Apache but of course it is much more recent history and not nearly as momentus in terms of world history. Was not Winfield Scott present at Lundy's Lane?

Yes he was but is better known for his failure on the Queenston Heights where had a superior force on top of the heights which is about a 140 ft very steep incline , going to see the reanactors next week at Fort Erie doing a recreation of the siege

 

[Amsel]

He was better known for his failure in your area but not ours.

Winfield Scott (June 13, 1786 – May 29, 1866) was a United States Army general, and unsuccessful presidential candidate of the Whig party in 1852. Known as "Old Fuss and Feathers" and the "Grand Old Man of the Army", he served on active duty as a general longer than any other man in American history and many historians rate him the ablest American commander of his time. Over the course of his fifty-year career, he commanded forces in the War of 1812, the Mexican-American War, the Black Hawk War, the Second Seminole War, and, briefly, the American Civil War, conceiving the Union strategy known as the Anaconda Plan that would be used to defeat the Confederacy. He served as Commanding General of the United States Army for twenty years, longer than any other holder of the office.

A national hero after the Mexican-American War, he served as military governor of Mexico City. Such was his stature that, in 1852, the United States Whig Party passed over its own incumbent President of the United States, Millard Fillmore, to nominate Scott in the United States presidential election. Scott lost to Democrat Franklin Pierce in the general election, but remained a popular national figure, receiving a brevet promotion in 1856 to the rank of lieutenant general, becoming the first American since George Washington to hold that rank.

From Wiki

During the War of 1812 in Canada, Lieutenant Colonel Scott took command of an American landing party during the middle of the Battle of Queenston Heights (in today's province of Ontario in Canada) in October 1812, but was forced to surrender after New York militia members refused to cross into Canada in support of the invasion.

 

[vikingBerserker]

He was better known for his failure in your area but not ours.

From Wiki

"During the War of 1812 in Canada, Lieutenant Colonel Scott took command of an American landing party during the middle of the Battle of Queenston Heights (in today's province of Ontario in Canada) in October 1812, but was forced to surrender after New York militia members refused to cross into Canada in support of the invasion."

Ok, that would have really sucked.

 

[Clay_Allison]

I must confess I know very little about the ACW (or whichever term you prefer for it). I have relatives in NC and have visited Richmond and Petersburg while staying with them (in fact, I walked a large part of the battlefield), and I have read a grand total of four books on the conflict. Short of that (and playing a couple of PC strategy games on the subject), I know nothing

I do get the impression though that the Confederate infantry were a force to be reckoned with in the early days of the war, and they progressively lost this edge as casualties and the worsening conditions in the south took thier toll. The 'what-if' of the British Army joining the CSA forces fascinates me, a boost to the numer and quality of the infantry facing the USA could well have changed the course of the war.

Hell with troops, we'd have won if the Brit Navy had broken the blockade and given the South food and weapons. All we had to do was abolish slavery, a thing we didn't really need. Clinging to the past cost us European recognition, that cost us the war and our freedom.

 

[pbfoot]

Just for your info where Scott picked to cross the Niagara River in my mind was a fools choice the river is if your not aware is probably the IMHO the most powerful river in the World , he had surprise and the terrain on his side when he got across but the small details like supplies and the such were messed up without forethought not a mark of great planning.. The Brits with the Loyalists would have to come up the river on the left side the right side is Lewiston NY. Ft George and Ft Niagara are at the end of the river about 6 miles up
The picture below is at the peak of the heights looking toward the FTs
I think I''ll try and make up a pic album on the Fts and Battlefields

 

[Amsel]

Just for your info where Scott picked to cross the Niagara River in my mind was a fools choice

Are you saying that you are a better general then Winfield Scott? Sometimes I just have to chuckle at some of the things said on forums these days by armchair generals. General Scott was captured and paid the price for his "fools choice". But that is war, no?

 

[GrauGeist]

...I think I''ll try and make up a pic album on the Fts and Battlefields

That would be cool, pb!

 

[Clay_Allison]

Are you saying that you are a better general then Winfield Scott? Sometimes I just have to chuckle at some of the things said on forums these days by armchair generals. General Scott was captured and paid the price for his "fools choice". But that is war, no?

Anybody is a better General with hindsight and research taking the place of foresight and intelligence.

 

[renrich]

Good stuff, PB.