Best late biplane fighter

[Vincenzo]

I would start a comparison of latest biplane fighters, taking into only aircaft produced in series, i found this: Kawasaki Ki 10-II, Polikarpov I 153, Avia B 534 IV series, Fiat C.R. 42, Gloster Gladiator II, Grumman F3F-3.
If some have others craft for this i can add.

in weaponry for dogfight is best the fighters with 4 rifle caliber mgs, for intercepting is best more heavy guns also if only 2.

all this aircraft were considereer with high manuvrability, in horizontal speed the polikarpov is the best, in vertical maybe the avia

waiting your opinions and facts


Kawasaki (operational from 1938 )
wing area: 23 m^2
weapons: 2 7.7 mm mgs
engine: 12V 800 HP, 3 blade metal prop
fuel: ?
weight: empty 1.36 - load 1.74 (metric tons)
speed max: 400 km/h at 3 km alt.
climb at 5 km in 5'
range: 1100 km
wing load: 76 kg/m^2
power load: 2.2 kg/HP

Polikarpov (1939)
wing area: 22.2 m^2
weapons: 4 7.7 mm mgs (or 2 12.7 mm, a few with 2 20 mm guns)
engine: 9R 850, 2 blade metal prop (some hundreds with more power engin)
fuel: 316 liters
weight: 1.45 - 2.1
speed max: 445 km/h at 4.6 km alt.
climb at 3 km in 3', at 9 km in 13'12''
range: 470 km
wing load: 95 kg/m^2
power load: 2.5 kg/HP

Avia (1937)
wing area: 23.6 m^2
weapons: 4 8 mm mgs
engine: 12V 850 HP, 2 blade metal prop
fuel: 347 liters
weight: 1.46 - 1.98
speed max: 395/405 Km/h at 4 km alt (different speed in differents sources)
climb at 5 km in 4'28''
range: 580 km
wing laod: 84 kg/m^2
power load: 2.3 kg/HP

FIAT (1939)
wing area: 22.4 m^2
weapons: 2 12.7 mm mgs (late variants with 4 12.7 mgs)
engine: 14R 840 HP, 3 blade metal prop
fuel: 305 kg
weight: 1.78 - 2.23
speed max: 440 km/h at 4 km alt. (probably 430 km/h on 4 mgs variants)
climb at 6 km in 9', at 3 km in 4'15''
range: 780 km
wing load:100 kg/m^2
power load: 2.7 kg/HP

Gloster (1938 )
wing area: 30 m^2
weapons: 4 7.7 mm mgs
engine: 9R 850 HP, 3 blade metal prop
fuel 318 liters
weight: 1.56 - 2.21
speed max: 415 km/h at 4.4 km alt
climb a 3.05 km in 4'30''
range: 715 km
wing load: 74 kg/m^2
power load: 2.6 kg/HP

Grumman (1939)
wing area: 24.1 m^2
weapons: 1 12.7 mm and 1 7.7 mm mgs
engine: 9R 850 HP, 3 blade ? prop
fuel: 492 liters
weight: 1.49 - 2.17
speed max: 425 km/h at 4.7 km alt
climb a 3.05 in 4'
range: 1850 km
wing load: 90 kg/m^2
power load: 2.6 kg/HP

 

[kool kitty89]

Some old threads on this:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/old-threads/best-biplane-fighter-war-134.html

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/polls/best-biplane-fighter-ww2-674.html

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/biplane-fighters-3099.html

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/last-dogfight-between-biplane-fighters-4667.html


This one is more comprehensive though including the Japanese, US, and Czech designs.


But for the ultimate biplane fighter it would probably be Canadian Car and Foundry FDB-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (though only a prototype)

 

[Vincenzo]

Yes i know some of this, but there are many chats and political but few fighter comparison, and how you tell i add u.s., czechzlovak and japanee design

 

[Juha]

I-153

 

[SoD Stitch]

Could you add the Arado Ar 68E?

 

[Vincenzo]

please left out chats, choices must be motivated not by simpathy.

 

[Vincenzo]

sorry Ar 68E is clearly outclassed from this aircraft, all run over 60 km/h more fast or in other words it's of a previous generation

 

[Juha]

Why I-153
Finns used both Gladiators and I-153s and thought that I-153 was cleary better. British made an "unofficial" mock combat between Gladiator and CR.42 and the result was that CR. 42 was somewhat better.

Specs shows that I-153 was a bit faster and climbed clearly better than CR. 42. The 7,62mm mgs of I-153 had very high ROF.

I cannot say much on the other 3 but that Ki-10 had reputation of being very manoeuvrable but so was also I-153.

My choice has nothing to do with sympathy.

 

[Vincenzo]

so it's ok if you motivated at fitst now we've 3 post less in this topic, i'm sorry if i'm talking in not kind mode

 

[kool kitty89]

The modified Gladiator with uprated engine and 3-blade variable pitch prop (a fairly common field mod aparently, both by Finns and British in MTO) gave speed performance on par with the Cr.42 and slightly better maneuverability, and significantly better climb. Further improvement could be made by replacing the cowling with a more streamlined one. (similar to the Blenheim's) (and even more with 100 octane gasoline -producing nearly 1,000 hp at ~9,200 ft)

Often the modifications were made using peices taken directly from Blenheim.

The Finns made similar modifictions previously with their Gauntlets.

 

[Juha]

Hello kool kitty
the Gauntlet in the photo is powered by Leonidas engine, that's why it has more streamlined engine cowling. During it's reconstruction there was much debate on the engine choice. And the engine was almost it's doom, happened to see the crash or forced landing more exactly. It has been repaired back to flying condition.

 

[Mitya]

I-153

 

[kool kitty89]

I-153 had the best armaments overall.

 

[Vincenzo]

The 3 blade prop was the alone standard for Gladiator II, the perfomance are what indicated. kk89 you're sure of use of 100 octane on Gladiator?
Surely the soviet 12.7 mm are good weapons i'm not sure that 2 ubs mgs are best of 4 breda mgs.
for mitya and for all please i'm not interessed a list of post with a name of aircraft give motivation

 

[kool kitty89]

Don't know if 100 octane was ever used was used, but those ratings were for the Blenheim's Mercury XV engines.

 

[kool kitty89]

The late I-153's carried 2x ShVAK 20 mm cannon.

The 4x ShKAS were better than 4x .303 (and better than 6x .303 if you include the possible upper wing guns on the Gladiator)

The Cr.42's 2x 12.7mm are better than any ot the LMG armaments, and the 4x Breda's are arguably better than the 2x UB's of some I-153's.

The 2x ShVAK are probaby the best, except thee were aparently some problems in firing on the I-153 as fusalage guns.


The Gladiator's enclosed cockpit, and excellent visibility are notable advantages. Particularly in cold environments (especially with the Finns), not so important in the MTO, but the view is generally better than the others.

And with lower wing loading and 4x ailerons the Gladiator is probably more maneuverable as well.


Of the others the Avia a/c is not as performant and has a light armament, though it did have an enclosed cockpit.

The F3F is good, but as it was withdrawn fairly early it didn't have a chance to get a heavier armament (2x .50's, though the .50 an .30 were decent) or armor protection. It did have about twice the range of the others though, and had an enclosed cockpit.

The Japanese a/c wouldn't have goten these for a while anyway, but its performance was decemt though (particularly climb), but its armament was lighter like the Avia.

And both the Avia and Ki-10 had more vulnerable liquis cooled engines. (and the japanese engine had problems of its own)

 

[Vincenzo]

oh surely the few i 153 with 2 20mm guns are the best armed biplane fighter but
В начале 1940 г. построили войсковую серию пушечных машин, обозначенных И-153П (╧6578, ╧6598, ╧6760). И-153П проходили испытания в 16 иап 24-й авиадивизии Московского военного округа в течение лета 1940 г. По отзывам летчиков, эти "Чайки", за счет возросшего веса, стали несколько инертнее в пилотировании, основным неудобством считалось загрязнение прозрачного пилотского козырька пороховой гарью. В целом испытания прошли успешно, последовало решение о постройке еще трех таких пушечных аппаратов. Согласно заводского отчета всего изготовили 8 экземпляров И-153П.
with google translator:
In early 1940, built a series of military cannon vehicles, designated I-153P (╧ 6578, ╧ 6598, ╧ 6760). And-153P were tested in 16 iap 24 - and aviadivizii the Moscow military district during the summer of 1940, According to feedback from pilots, the "Seagull" at the expense of increased weight, have become somewhat inert in piloting, the main disadvantage was considered pollution transparent pilot visor powder harem . In general, tests were successful, followed by a decision to build three more such cannon vehicles. According to the record total factory produced copies 8 I-153P.

 

[parsifal]

I think the CR42 was the "best", not so much from stright up performance, but rather because it found a second life as the RAs principal ground attack and Night Fighter. Admitedly its use in the latter was limited, but it did mean that it could continue to be used for some purpose. Gladiators were pretty much withdrawn after 1941. I-153s provided some close support functions, but not as effectively or as long as the CR 42

 

[Juha]

Parsifal
the poor Finns used Gladiators, the Fighter Recon Flight of Recon Sqn 14, up to mid-summer 44 when they were replaced by I-153. Not that they did badly, they could survive from attacks of Soviet AF Warhawks by using their excellent manouverability but because long awaited Finnish Myrsky was again delayed it was decided that the flight got I-153s instead, with I-153s they managed even shoot down one Soviet Airacobra.

Juha

 

[kool kitty89]

So the Finns thought the I-153 was superior?