Best World War II Aircraft?

[VBF-13]

Now with that said you bring up "the period and the suitability of the item to the task at hand." Well look at the logistics required to move armies and supplies AND then have that same "item" to be able to function long after the mission is accomplished, it shows that you not only had a machine that did its job on a daily basis, but participated in critical battles and continued to serve years after their intended use, and that being the C-47. The SDB was a great aircraft and continued to serve long after its greatest hour but no way holds any type of innovative uniqueness or technical advancements that would have given it longevity 60 years after its greatest hour.

Aside from your argument, the success of the SBD at Midway was actually attributed to luck more than anything else. Although I personally don't believe it would have been subjected to the same slaughter that Torpedo 8 was subjected to, it would have been a way different story if the zeros that attacked Waldron's squadron had been at altitude to deal with the SBDs.

I'm going to overlook the rest of your last reply without comment. Please don't construe that as acquiescence on my part. Construe it rather as I don't have any more time for that than I'm sure you do.

On what's left, I acknowledge that entire top paragraph. Can we let that go at, specific to the tasks, there were a number of "period bests?" I'll settle for that.

As to the bottom paragraph, I'm in agreement, there, as well. Or, at least, largely. In fact, calling it "luck," as you do, is probably even to understate it. That torpedo squadron, however, could never have turned that fleet away, so long as the fleet had firepower left, which it had. Those things had to come in too low to the water, and, as such, were hit, many before they could release their "fish" level. That's, principally, why those failed. Speaking of luck, the Navy just so also happened to have had the right stuff on deck to complete the job, in those "Speedy-Ds." Had there been any other planes, there, in lieu of those, I don't believe we'd have turned that fleet back.

Listen, have a good night. I'm bushed.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I'm going to overlook the rest of your last reply without comment. Please don't construe that as acquiescence on my part. Construe it rather as I don't have any more time for that than I'm sure you do.

On what's left, I acknowledge that entire top paragraph. Can we let that go at, specific to the tasks, there were a number of "period bests?" I'll settle for that.

Fair enough

As to the bottom paragraph, I'm in agreement, there, as well. Or, at least, largely. In fact, calling it "luck," as you do, is probably even to understate it. That torpedo squadron, however, could never have turned that fleet away, so long as the fleet had firepower left, which it had. Those things had to come in too low to the water, and, as such, were hit, many before they could release their "fish" level. That's, principally, why those failed. Speaking of luck, the Navy just so also happened to have had the right stuff on deck to complete the job, in those "Speedy-Ds." Had there been any other planes, there, in lieu of those, I don't believe we'd have turned that fleet back.

Listen, have a good night. I'm bushed.

All points taken, but in the end to say the SBD was the best aircraft of WW2 is a far stretch based on on where the aircraft was prior to Midway and where it went after. Aside from its layout, construction and systems, it left little in longevity or innovation and its ultimately found itself out to pasture as soon as the war ended as its design was reflective as a norm from a bygone era. The C-47 brought things to the table that made it not only the best aircraft of WW2, but probably of all time.

 

[VBF-13]

All points taken, but in the end to say the SBD was the best aircraft of WW2 is a far stretch based on on where the aircraft was prior to Midway and where it went after. Aside from its layout, construction and systems, it left little in longevity or innovation and its ultimately found itself out to pasture as soon as the war ended as its design was reflective as a norm from a bygone era. The C-47 brought things to the table that made it not only the best aircraft of WW2, but probably of all time.

OK, we're on track. Thanks. The SBD had its moment of glory, let's just call it. BTW, FWIW, before I had even dared so much as to open my mouth in this thread, I had read about 40 pages or so back.

Let me just mention this, and I'll fly out of here, for now. Making a dive is a skill. If you consider the Kamikazes, those were in the nature of dive bombers. The only difference was, they had just taught those inexperienced pilots, if you could indeed even call most of them pilots, how to take off, and how to steer the darn things. Those were, to a large extent, Zeroes, although they were other aircraft, too. By that time in the War, Mitsubishi had made hundreds of different models of Zeroes, in a vain effort to gain back their edge against our newer fighters, in particular, the Hellcat. My point is this. While, from an overall strategic standpoint, the philosophy was simple, i.e., just fill the thing with explosives and run it into a warship, from a tactical standpoint, most of those were disasters. When you look at the sinks, they sunk around 50 warships, or so. But, many of the ones that didn't get in, weren't necessarily shot down. They simply couldn't hit their targets. Others dove too steeply, starting those dives from too high up, and literally tore the wings off the frail planes from the acceleration at that steep angle. Many others, of course, came in too "broad," and were sitting ducks for our guns.

My point is, at that time, I don't even think the Japanese had the "Judys," yet. And, the Germans had lacked the machinery and pilot skills to hit moving targets over ocean atmospheric conditions from a 20,000-foot or so descent. From a snapshot- in-time standpoint, those SBDs and those skilled pilots were state-of-the-art, and they did exactly what they had been built and trained to do, in a decisive moment, when they were called upon to do it. And, they were simply the "best" at it. Rating that aircraft on other grounds, most notably, longevity, it can't raise a candle to an aircraft like the C-47, you guys got me, there, unquestionably.

 

[renrich]

Michael, the point about overclaiming is that the only way to resolve accurately the claims is to study the opponent's records for he should know how many of his AC did not return and mostly why they did not and he obviously should know how many were damaged. That is the reason that I value Lundstrom's and Shores' work so much because they appear to have exhaustively studied the Japanese records which I am guessing were carefully kept, on the whole, just as the LW's records probably were.

I wonder how accurately the records were kept in the USSR?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Making a dive is a skill.

Actually its not - I fly many types of airplanes and I can dive Cessna 150 to an L39. Diving an airplane with a bomb attached to it is a different story but not by much...

You are attaching a flying skill to a specific aircraft. Try flying an aircraft in 1 mile visibility on a landing approach and having an aircraft that could support the best equipment that would enable you to successfully land....

That's my point

 

[VBF-13]

Actually its not - I fly many types of airplanes and I can dive Cessna 150 to an L39. Diving an airplane with a bomb attached to it is a different story but not by much...

You are attaching a flying skill to a specific aircraft. Try flying an aircraft in 1 mile visibility on a landing approach and having an aircraft that could support the best equipment that would enable you to successfully land...

That's my point

That's cool. But, just as a point of clarification, I wasn't talking about clowning around when I said it takes skill to make a dive. You may qualify that statement with the rest of that paragraph. Heck, the inexperienced, young kids in the Kamikazes could make a dive. I'll add to that, just FYI, that the SBDs were used throughout the War specifically just to train cadets how to do that. The ground had a way of measuring the angles to the horizon on which they came in, and the pilots would get real-time feedback on that. I'll spare you the rest, but I'll say this much, by the Summer of 1944, they were washing out nearly a third of those cadets, right at that stage, where they were dive-bombing on die markers over the Atlantic and Gulf. Eighteen months, right down the chute, just like that. They told them go be sailors. Not that they had anything against sailors...

EDIT: I forgot your second paragraph. It reminds me of Kennedy's kid. If I recall, there were those who tried to pin that on the aircraft. No instrument rating. That's what happened, there. Your point is well-taken, though...

 

[Civettone]

Maybe the C-47 was the most important aircraft of WW2 ... but does that make it the best?


Kris

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Maybe the C-47 was the most important aircraft of WW2 ... but does that make it the best?


Kris

It does - because as stated if you look at what it brought to the table, its bang for the buck and finally longevity, nothing else touches it.

 

[VBF-13]

Maybe the C-47 was the most important aircraft of WW2 ... but does that make it the best?

Or, what was the best-built aircraft? They seem to be answering that one, too.

 

[johnbr]

The Japan's also had a version of the C47 that was made under licence.

 

[VBF-13]

The Japan's also had a version of the C47 that was made under licence.

Johnbr, who would have been the licensor on that one? I'm afraid I don't understand.

 

[jtm55]

Hi All

For me it has to be the C47 as for all the reasons previously listed. In addition, I live 1 mile from Republic Airport which also is the home of the American Airpower Museum. This museum is unique in that many of the aircraft there still fly. Among the still flying aircraft is a C47.
I strongly recommend anyone in the Long Island NY area go visit this museum, you won't regret it. Here's the link to the museum http://www.americanairpowermuseum.com/Website/Index.aspx

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Johnbr, who would have been the licensor on that one? I'm afraid I don't understand.

Japan purchased a licencing production agreement from Douglas prior to the war commencing. Showa / Nakajima L2D2 "Tabby " was the aircraft.

 

[VBF-13]

Japan purchased a licencing production agreement from Douglas prior to the war commencing. Showa / Nakajima L2D2 "Tabby " was the aircraft.

That's a fascinating tidbit, you guys. Thanks for sharing.

 

[cimmee]

Maybe the C-47 was the most important aircraft of WW2 ... but does that make it the best?


Kris

Yup...

Case closed....

 

[renrich]

Just to tack onto this thread and not necessarily to designate the best WW2 aircraft, in reading the book on the report on the October, 1944, Fighter Conference, a factor not often realised by many of us, including me, is the environment inside the cockpit. Especially for the long range escort fighter, that environment could have a huge impact on pilot success. In the meetings held at the conference there was a lot of discussion about instrument panel layouts, heating and ventilation, size and comfort of the cockpit and seat, legroom, visibility, oxygen bottles for bailout at high altitudes, noise, etc. For instance, the bubble canopies usually gave better visibility but were not an unmixed blessing since in certain conditions the cockpit became very hot. Those guys who flew the high altitude long range escort missions had a lot to contend with beside hostile enemy action. It had to have been a young man's job.

Maybe we should start a thread to discuss which WW2 fighter had the best environment overall for the pilot in the cockpit?

 

[Elvis]

Hey Renrich, what's up?
Been a while since I've been around here.

In response to your statement, I understand that "comfort" was one of the things pilots liked about the P-39/P-63.
They had doors, so you got in them like you would a car, and the cockpit was rather roomy.
Another thing that pilots would mention as being fatiguing on long flights was the vibration from the engine/propeller.
-51 pilots who did long range escorts in the later part of the war mentioned that, sometimes, by the time they were needed, they were numb and almost "stupid" from being vibrated to death for the past 4-6 hours.
...that was one of the really nice thing about the jets. They were smooth.



Elvis

 

[renrich]

Well, the cockpit of the P39 was built for a pilot who was 5'8" or less so it must have been pretty cramped and neither the P39 or P63 had the range to be a long range escort. It was said at the fighter conference that the P47 was a quiet cockpit and I have read a pilot of the F4U to say the cockpit of the Corsair was quiet and vibration free compared to the Hellcat. A good feature of the P51 was that the operation of the super charger was automatic. The FW190 needed only one control for prop, mixture and throttle which reduced pilot load but may have made formation flying difficult.

 

[marshall]

The FW190 needed only one control for prop, mixture and throttle which reduced pilot load but may have made formation flying difficult.

Why would it made formation flying more difficult?

I'm no pilot (unfortunately) that's why I'm asking.

 

[renrich]

I think it has something to do with the fine tuning that needs to be done to keep a formation of AC all going in the same direction at the same altitude and speed.