Bf-109 Spinner Colors

[wwz7777]

Hello all,
It's been a while since I've visited this site and it looks awesome! I recently came across some color profiles of Bf-109's on the internet and a couple caught my eye. They were shown sporting a red spinner with the white spiral instead of the usual black spinner. I've wanted to use the red spinner but didn't think it was accurate. All the photos in all of my books only describe the black spinner and white spiral. Could red be a legitimate option?

Thanks in advance! And I did try searching here but didn't find anything. Could be poor search technique on my part!

Cheers!

 

[Wurger]

The German Bf 109 spinner was of the RLM 70 Schwarzgrün and painted in a factory usually. Depending on the Bf 109 version there can be rings of different colours or the white spiral. You may find the white spinners with RLM70 spiral as well. Also there could be a white "quarter" although it was of 1/3 in fact. The red colour for spinners and white spiral didn't happen rather for Bf 109 I would say. The overall yellow or white could be, especially for kites used at the Eastern front and the North Africa. Of course other countries that used Bf 109 could paint the spinner in a different way including the red colour. Just my opinion only.

 

[Crimea_River]

Can we definitely say no 109's ever had that? There are many variations: black with white spiral, black with yellow spiral, white with black spiral and Hermann Graf famously had a red spinner but no spiral as far as I know.

If you know who the artist for the profile is, it would help to authenticate it as some of these guys (e.g Claes Sundin, Thierry Dekker) really do their homework.

 

[Wurger]

Can we definitely say no 109's ever had that? .

Yep that's true. We can't. But we should remember that spinners were painted in factories with RLM rules. Of course it could be repainted later in a squadron by a maintenance crew. Therefore a picture of the particular plane would be helpful. However B&W images can be misleading with colours.

For instance the caption shot says it's Bf 109 G-6 W.Nr. 411 777 "Schwarze 15" "Quex", Lt. Walter Wolfrum, 5./JG 52, Grammatikovo, Ukraine, March 1944. The light tone of the spinner may really indicate the red colour.

But the pic is said to be the same kite Bf 109 G-6 W.Nr. 411 777 "Schwarze 15" "Quex", Lt. Walter Wolfrum, 5./JG 52, Grammatikovo, Ukraine, 1 April 1944. The spinner colour looks darker than the one above. So.. was it of the red in the March and then would be repainted at the end of the month? I doubt. It's a matter of sunlight, fading of colours and filters the pic was taken with, IMHO. But I saw a profile of the kite with the red spinner and white spiral.

Here the profile ...

 

[Crimea_River]

Looks like Sundin's work.

 

[Wurger]

And also found the profile ..

 

[stona]

I think as a rule you have to go with what you know. Unless you have some really good evidence that the spinner on 'Black 15' above was red then go with the factory standard.
A black and white photograph showing a slightly lighter shade than expected is not good evidence, there are any number of reasons why that could happen. In the first photograph the spinner colour is very close to that of the propeller blades, and nobody would suggest that they were red. I would say that this is good evidence for RLM 70 on both the spinner and blades, though the red spinner has been appearing in profiles and on decal sheets for some time now..
Walter Wolfrum noting in his diary that he had a red spinner with a white spiral on his aircraft, or stating post war that this is what he had, would be good evidence, but it doesn't exist as far as I know. He passed away in 2010, so maybe somebody did ask him.
Cheers
Steve

 

[woody_s]

In Planes of the Luftwaffe Fighter Aces by Barbas, on page 124, there is a color photo of a mechanic painting a yellow spiral on a black and red segmented spinner. There is also a color photo in one of the old Monogram Luftwaffe colors books by Smith and Gallespy of a whole line up of FW-190's with red, white and black spinners. So I don't think you can count red out. Although I also don't think it was very common either.
Cheers,
Woody

 

[stona]

So I don't think you can count red out. Although I also don't think it was very common either.
Cheers,
Woody

Quite so. The coloured spinners and/or spirals certainly have their origins in the different Staffel colours. The standard for various times is known. I simply believe that this should be the default in the absence of good evidence to the contrary, but the contrary did doubtless exist in some cases.
Cheers
Steve

 

[wwz7777]

Thank you all for the replies and insights! I agree with them all. Now to throw another monkey wrench into the fray:
I purchased this book from a bookseller and it has some interesting profiles.

The middle profile is labeled:
"Me 109K-4, (Wk N 332529), Stab/JG 52, Deutsch-Brod, Czechoslovakia, May 1945"
I've an actual photo of this aircraft in one of my other books, and it also noted the red tulip and spinner.

The bottom profile is labeled:
"Me 109K-4, I/KG(J) 6, Bohemia, May 1945"
I don't think I've seen an actual photo of this aircraft anywhere. I have found photos of several of the other profiles in this book. Is there any documentation to support this profile?

Thanks for indulging me!
Bill