michael rauls
Tech Sergeant
- 1,679
- Jul 15, 2016
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Verry cool stuff. Not sure if I mentioned this already but another conventional wisdom trope about the p40 that I have read for years, decades actually, is that there were no allied units oparating the p40 in front line service in Europe by the end of the war. Well ive fairly recently found out that there were at least 3, the 450th, 250th, and I think 150th RAAF still flying p40s in fron line service right up until VE day.Agreed - it's also a lesson in how tactics and field modifications could make a major difference in outcomes. The 325th FG were real killers, they had a very good leader who was himself an Ace (Lt. Col. Robert Baseler) who was simultaneously flexible and disciplined.
The lightening of the aircraft (later built-in with the P-40L), tweaking the engines for higher boost, flying in pairs and using special tactics, and being able to specialize in fighter operations instead of a heavy emphasis on fighter-bomber sorties all made a big difference.
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Apparently he had a competition with his crew, he kept painting 'stud' on the plane, they kept painting 'mortimer snerd' on it. It went back and forth.
One thing the 325th did on at least two occasions was to use one lower flying squadron as bait, flying out ahead of the others. The first squadron would be attacked by the Bf 109s or MC 205 / 202s, and would 'pull' their pursuers out to sea, where they would be 'bounced' from out of the Sun by the other squadron or sometimes two squadrons, while the original bait squadron would initiate a hard 180 degree turn and rejoin the fight. This is what apparently happened on July 22 and July 30, to the Italians and Luftwaffe respectively.
325th converted to P-47s in September though so their time using P-40s was pretty short. Later they converted again to P-51s.
There was at least one US unit oparating then in the CBI right up until the end. I can't remember the number right now. I'll do a little digging and see if I can remember.Yeah as "kittybombers" - kinda feel sorry for some of those squadrons as they got turned into bomber units.
I think some of the CBI fighter units were still operating P-40s in 1945 too, like 51st FG, they converted to P-51s some time in 1945 I think a few months into it.
This is a pretty epic photo of one of their P-40s, worth a click
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Schweik,Yeah as "kittybombers" - kinda feel sorry for some of those squadrons as they got turned into bomber units.
I think some of the CBI fighter units were still operating P-40s in 1945 too, like 51st FG, they converted to P-51s some time in 1945 I think a few months into it.
This is a pretty epic photo of one of their P-40s, worth a click
View attachment 523175
In reality the Italians lost 2 x Mc202 and 1 x 202 damaged whilst the 325th lost one P40 which hit the sea. The combat was 14 x Mc202 and 2 x Mc205 vs 35 x P40 escorting 26 x B26. The Italians attacked both the P40's and the B26's aggressively and the B26 Gunners claimed a total of seven Bf109. I believe it would be wrong to assume that both the Mc202 losses were by the P40's. The Damaged Mc202 was noted as being return fire presumably by the bombers.May 27 1943 (US 325th FG vs. Italian 51 and 42 Stormo) 3 x MC 202 lost / 0 P-40s lost
There were a number of combats this day and the total claims made by the the US forces were :-May 28 1943 (US 325th FG and 14th FG [P-38] vs JG 27 and Italian 41 and 150 Stormo) 3 x Bf 109G-4 and G-6 lost**, 1 x Bf 109G (Italian) lost / 1 P-40 and 1 P-38 lost
On this day three Bf109's were lost and no P40's were shot down. However one 109 was shot down by a Spitfire, one was damaged by Boston's, then shot down by Italian flak and the third was shot down just by the Italian flak. Not a good day for the Italian flak gunners, or a good day depending on how you look at it.June 6 1943 (US 325th FG and 52FG [Spit V] vs JG 27 and JG 53) 3 x Bf 109 shot down*** / 0 P-40 shot down
There was a lot of fighting on this day in a fairly small area and there is no doubt that the allies came out on top and the numbers quoted above are good. As far as the P40's are concerned the narrative states that they believe that theJune 10 1943 (US 325th and 79th FG and 31st FG [Spit] vs JG 27 and JG 53, and Italian 161, 22, and 53 Stormos) 15 x Bf 109s lost, 8 MC 202 lost**** / 3 P-40s lost
As for the June 10 engagement you mentioned, you have some omissions. In your claim that the original 30 Axis fighters 6x Bf 109s and 24 x MC 202s were "heavily outnumbered" - a couple of points.
Worth pointing out all 6 of the Spitfire claims at the time of that engagement were by one (1) squadron, the 309th FS of the 31st FG. Implying that only that squadron was engaged. They claimed 6 and got 7.
Then the Axis group engaged 79th FG P 40s, and 15 of their 17 claims were by one (87th) squadron. 2 more claims were from the 85th FS. Shores in fact points out that only these two squadrons were engaged, so probably no more than 30 fighters.
Please read the narrative with more care. the 12 x 109s escorting the seaplane were from II/JG 27 which only lost two Bf 109's during the day. If one did crash from losing its wing then only one was shot down earlierThe biggest omission though seems to be that you forgot to note that at least 12 x additional Bf 109s from the famous JG 27 also joined the fray when the P-40s were attacking seaplanes at low altitude. Shores mentions one of these colliding with a P 40 and losing a wing.
Shores lists 3 P 40s lost in the day, two from 325 FG and one from 79th FG
That a re run of the RAF were not outnumbered during the BOB because all the escorts were not in combat at the same time argument
Please read the narrative with more care. the 12 x 109s escorting the seaplane were from II/JG 27 which only lost two Bf 109's during the day. If one did crash from losing its wing then only one was shot down earlier
Correct but in the narrative it is clear that he refers to three losses from the 325 FG two in the first action and one in the second. You say two I say three the book says both, you pays your money and back the one you want
Small point but I don't do excuses. I try for reasons and on this day, the P40's did very well, no question.So whats your excuse about July 30?