Bf-109 vs Spitfire vs Fw-190 vs P-51

[VG-33]

Hundreds of horsepower gained between the low/high rated altitudes, and about 10 horsepower lost at and above the rated altitude to quantify it a bit.

10 hp coast for an 1200 hp engine ! It's an output of 99,2% (or 0.8% loss if you want)! Isn't it too much for a kind of "viscodrive" tinkered with, mid 30ies?
Is it from your own (optimistic...) supposals or have you got test bend results from an independent laboratory?
This apart, i agree with the idea of a global advance of that supercharging system over a classical two speeds one...

Regards

 

[Kurfürst]

Hi VG 33,

This is for DB 605L, the one with the most powerful supercharger mounted. If I read it correctly the power loss at 3,5% slip is 17 PS. I would assume the other DB engines with much more simple superchargers would loose less.

 

[Kurfürst]

Hello Kurfürst
you forget completely the Italians, who played substantial part on Malta Campaigns and also suffered substantial losses and also achieved kills against Malta fighters.

Yes unfortunately our analysis seems incomplete, as nobody until steve51 could come up with Italian losses.

Also I'm sure that when you evaluate the effectiveness of the fighter defence of the Reich you do not compare only Allied escort fighter losses vs. LW fighter losses but also take the Allied bomber losses into consideration, so why not do the same in case of Malta.

Indeed. We still miss British bomber losses, after all the Germans were not going after Malta, because it was there, they did it because it was a base of operations for British bombers and naval craft that harassed Axis convoys carrying supplies to the German forces in Africa.

Do you perhaps have information British bomber losses or those of the Fleet Air Arm? The LW shot down these in numbers too, and mostly likely suffered losses to these aircraft too, not just Hurris and Spits, so I am puzzled why you only concentrate on portion of the British losses, while presenting LW losses at full.

It certainly not a solid way to present a realistic picture about the relative combat performance over Malta.

After all the main target of an interceptor was the bomber. Malta Spitfires in Oct 42 succeeded to stop the German bombing offensive by extracting higher price from LW bomber force than LW was ready to pay.

Can you support this statement with something? The Germans "stopped" their air offensives many times. They stopped bombing Britain in May 1941 when they regrouped their bombers to the East. They stopped bombing Malta in 1941 when they felt they neutralized it and forces were needed elsewhere (primary on the Eastern front).

Frankly, one German bomber lost every two or three days in 1942 hardly seems to me as some kind of a crippling loss rate.

And those Mk Vs were equipped with Vokes filters, which produced rather high performance loss, and had to fought against Bf 109G-2s and Macchi 202s. Even if I'm not a great fan of Spit Mk V, it seems that when operated right way, it wasn't so bad as an interceptor in Med.
Juha

Typically 109s and Macchis did carry a tropical filter (of Italian design) in the Med, too. and of course the Mk V did OK against bombers, it was still a good faster than bombers and was well armed. We are discussing however how it performed against fighters, and the data supplied so far seems to indicates that it did very poorly.

 

[Milosh]

dp

 

[Milosh]

Can you support this statement with something? The Germans "stopped" their air offensives many times. They stopped bombing Britain in May 1941 when they regrouped their bombers to the East. They stopped bombing Malta in 1941 when they felt they neutralized it and forces were needed elsewhere (primary on the Eastern front).

Luftwaffe records indicate that between 20 March and 28 April 1942, Malta was subjected to 11,819 sorties and 6,557 tonnes of bombs.

A renewed wave of attacks on 11 October 1942. However, this time the defenders were mass equipped with Spitfire Mk VB/Cs. Over 17 days, the Luftwaffe suffered 34 Ju 88s and 12 Bf 109s destroyed and 18 damaged. RAF losses amounted to 23 Spitfires shot down and 20 crash landed. 12 RAF pilots were killed.

 

[RCAFson]

Luftwaffe records indicate that between 20 March and 28 April 1942, Malta was subjected to 11,819 sorties and 6,557 tonnes of bombs.

A renewed wave of attacks on 11 October 1943. However, this time the defenders were mass equipped with Spitfire Mk VB/Cs. Over 17 days, the Luftwaffe suffered 34 Ju 88s and 12 Bf 109s destroyed and 18 damaged. RAF losses amounted to 23 Spitfires shot down and 20 crash landed. 12 RAF pilots were killed.

I think that should read Oct 11 1942, as by Oct 1943 the Luftwaffe was far out of Bf109 range against Malta.

 

[Shortround6]

Hi VG 33,

This is for DB 605L, the one with the most powerful supercharger mounted. If I read it correctly the power loss at 3,5% slip is 17 PS. I would assume the other DB engines with much more simple superchargers would loose less.

I don't read German but does that say the supercharger took 475 PS to drive?

In any case the loss to the hydraulic drive was trivial. Gear drives are also going to have a slight loss. A more important consideration was the heating (or foaming?) of the oil, especially under max slip (low altitude) conditions although I understand that later engines didn't suffer as much as earlier engines did from this.

End of the war Allisons and some post war R-2800s used hydraulic drives to either the 1st stage of a two stage system or to the only compressor of a single stage system.
The Allison numbers track pretty well with the DB numbers. The -143 Allison needed 472hp to drive the supercharger at critical altitude with the hydraulic coupling needing 4% or just under 20hp. Engine was rated at 2250hp in this condition. However while the engine oil cooler was dissipate 187 hp worth of heat at full throttle the aux supercharger (1st stage) drive oil cooler could need to dissipate up to 118 hp worth of heat at a condition of 50% slip. What the airframe designer gained in power output a some altitudes had to paid for with either a separate oil cooler and ducting or a larger oil cooler for the main engine depending the engine design. On the whole the hydraulic coupling was a more elegant design, offering more flexibility but it did have a few down sides which held up it's more widespread use.

 

[Milosh]

I think that should read Oct 11 1942, as by Oct 1943 the Luftwaffe was far out of Bf109 range against Malta.

Err, fat fingers.

but: The last air raid over Malta occurred on 20 July 1943. It was the 3,340th alert since 11 June 1940.

 

[NZTyphoon]

Typically 109s and Macchis did carry a tropical filter (of Italian design) in the Med, too

In North Africa, yes: however photos of Sicilian based 109 F-4s (JG 53 and other units) shows that the majority of them did not use tropical filters (Prien and Rodeike Bf 109 F, G, K series pages 30-33, 39, 52).

 

[NZTyphoon]

Indeed. We still miss British bomber losses, after all the Germans were not going after Malta, because it was there, they did it because it was a base of operations for British bombers and naval craft that harassed Axis convoys carrying supplies to the German forces in Africa.

Yet in the end the loss of supplies to to the Afrika Korps was one important reason why the Germans were driven out of North Africa. Bottom line was both the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica failed to subdue Malta enough to stop the attacks, except for some brief periods when the RAF was in trouble.

We are discussing however how it performed against fighters, and the data supplied so far seems to indicates that it did very poorly.

A renewed wave of attacks on 11 October 1942. However, this time the defenders were mass equipped with Spitfire Mk VB/Cs. Over 17 days, the Luftwaffe suffered 34 Ju 88s and 12 Bf 109s destroyed and 18 damaged. RAF losses amounted to 23 Spitfires shot down and 20 crash landed. 12 RAF pilots were killed.

Considering the Spifire Vs were charged with attacking the bombers first and were fighting against the Italian fighters as well (the figures do not include Italian fighters shot down), and not all Spitfires fell to Bf 109s, it didn't do as poorly as is implied.

 

[Glider]

Re the RAF bombers. We don't have the numbers but the vast majority of these sorties were on shipping strikes which is a risky business and a majority of the losses seem to have been to AA fire. Shipping strikes were almost never escorted by Spitfires or Hurricanes, in the early months of 1942 Blenhiem fighters were used as escort and latterly Beaufighters. Also convoys were rarely if ever escorted by 109's normally the Italian airforce and/or Ju88c or Me110. So as a guide to how well the fighters did against each other it wouldn't add much to the debate.

Side notes,
1) the Blenhiem fighters were equipped with a 20mm in the nose as well as the 4 x lmg
2) as well as the 109F4 in the last quarter of 1942 the 109G2 came into use by the Luftwaffe over Malta. These had a significant advantage over the Spit V.
3) The leader of the Malta Torpedo strike units was grounded after taking part in 18 torpedo attacks, an RAF record and probably one of the highest total of such strikes by one pilot, anywhere.

 

[Kurfürst]

Re the RAF bombers. We don't have the numbers but the vast majority of these sorties were on shipping strikes which is a risky business and a majority of the losses seem to have been to AA fire.

Do we know how many German/Italian bombers and fighters were lost to naval and ground AAA?

 

[Juha]

Hello Steve
thanks a lot for the Italian info.

Hello Kurfürst
Quote:" Yes unfortunately our analysis seems incomplete, as nobody until steve51 could come up with Italian losses."

Yes but it would not have been difficult to gauge that because Italians played substantial part on Malta Campaigns they also suffered substantial losses and also achieved kills against Malta fighters.

Quote:" Can you support this statement with something?"

I also gave two sources, one of them official history, but if you have problem with British sources, look on Prien's JG 53 history, Vol 2 (5.42-1.44), English edition, p. 491. In fact the Oct 42 bomber offensive only lasted from 11. Oct to 18th or 19th Oct, losses already given. On 19th only one bomber attack at dusk, but almost all of 40 Ju 88s dumped their bombs into sea when 3 Spits and 2 Beaufighters attacked, only 3 crossed the coastline and bombed Luga and Hal Far without effect. Loss rate of 3 bombers and 1 badly damaged per day wasn't so high but meant that during that 9 day period c. 20% of attacking bombers were lost and further 6% badly dam and Germans knew that bombing results were very disappointing.

Quote:" Do you perhaps have information British bomber losses or those of the Fleet Air Arm? The LW shot down these in numbers too, and mostly likely suffered losses to these aircraft too, not just Hurris and Spits, so I am puzzled why you only concentrate on portion of the British losses, while presenting LW losses at full.

It certainly not a solid way to present a realistic picture about the relative combat performance over Malta."


During Oct 42 offensive there was no bomber losses and FAA losses, if any, should have been minimal. So I gave more or less all the British losses during the Oct 42 offensive but two Beaufighter shot down by Italian naval AA during a shipping strike on 14th Oct and that info was lacking from my original message only because I didn't know that info before I just read the relevant pages from Shores' Malta: The Spitfire Year 1942.

Quote:" Typically 109s and Macchis did carry a tropical filter (of Italian design) in the Med, too. and of course the Mk V did OK against bombers, it was still a good faster than bombers and was well armed. We are discussing however how it performed against fighters, and the data supplied so far seems to indicates that it did very poorly."

That Italian filter didn't produce any big performance losses, Vokes was clearly worse in that respect, later also the British developed much less draggy filters for their fighters.

And 5 Spitfire V sqns did force Axis to stop offensive of 6 Ju 88 Gruppen and 3 Z.1007bis Gruppi plus 1 Gruppe and 1 Gruppo of Ju 87s protected by 4 Bf 109 G Gruppen and 4 Italian fighter Gruppi. I would say that Spits did fairly well and Axis escorts failed to give adequate protection to bombers. And in the end the results was not a temporary set-back for Axis but a strategic failure from which Axis paid a high price in coming months.

Juha

 

[Glider]

Do we know how many German/Italian bombers and fighters were lost to naval and ground AAA?

I am afraid not.

 

[NZTyphoon]

I also gave two sources, one of them official history, but if you have problem with British sources, look on Prien's JG 53 history, Vol 2 (5.42-1.44), English edition, p. 491. In fact the Oct 42 bomber offensive only lasted from 11. Oct to 18th or 19th Oct, losses already given. On 19th only one bomber attack at dusk, but almost all of 40 Ju 88s dumped their bombs into sea when 3 Spits and 2 Beaufighters attacked, only 3 crossed the coastline and bombed Luga and Hal Far without effect. Loss rate of 3 bombers and 1 badly damaged per day wasn't so high but meant that during that 9 day period c. 20% of attacking bombers were lost and further 6% badly dam and Germans knew that bombing results were very disappointing.

I would say that Spits did fairly well and Axis escorts failed to give adequate protection to bombers. And in the end the results was not a temporary set-back for Axis but a strategic failure from which Axis paid a high price in coming months.

Juha

In fact the 'October Offensive' consisted of small formations of JU 88s (7-8 usually) or fighter-bombers escorted by large numbers of Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica fighters - almost exactly the same as the RAF "Circus" ops over France in 1941, with similar results.

German bombers were forced to dump their bombs before reaching Malta more than once: eg: October !2 Midday raid; 8 Ju 88s covered by 10 Mc 202s and 20 Bf 109s. Attacked head-on by 229 249 Sqns. Four Ju 88s shot down for no losses.

October 14, afternoon raid; 8 Ju 88s escorted by 31 Mc 202s and 44 Bf 109s. Three Ju 88s shot down for no losses. (Albeit Spitfires claimed 7, possibly 8 Ju 88s).

October 15, late morning; 8 Ju 88s and 8 109 Jabos escorted by 25 Mc 202s forced to turn back; Spitfires bounced by another formation of 109s 3 109s lost to 2 Spitfires lost, 1 damaged.

After 18 October the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica reverted to high-altitude fighter-bomber operations which were mostly ineffectual.

 

[Juha]

Hello NZ
IIRC on the first day (11th Oct) one raid consisted c. 15 Ju 88s and the last c. 30, the first raids were with 6-8 Ju 88s with heavy fighter escort and later LW returned to the small scale bomber formations with heavy fighter escorts. But as I wrote they had gathered a powwrful bomber force of c. 150 Ju 88s on Sicily for attacks on Malta. Realistically the Ju 87s were not used daytime, they were to be used in daytimeonly after British fighter defence was crushed.

Juha

 

[Glider]

11th October
The first raid on the 11th consisted of seven KG54 JU88 escorted by 25 Machi 202 and 4 x 109. 19 x Spit V intercepted and it looks as if 1 x Ju88 and 1 x Machi 202 was shot down, no loss to Spitfires
Second Raid - 6 x Ju88 escorted by 65 fighters, 20 Spitfires intercepted, A number of aircraft on both sides were claimed but it doesn't look as if any were lost but the bombing did negligable damage. The fighters did keep the Spitfires off the bombers.
Third raid - Similar to the second, again with a number of aircraft claimed and damaged but none lost in combat but a couple on both sides crash landed.
Fourth raid - 16 x Ju88, 17 x Bomb carrying Re 2001 escorted by 25 x Mc202 at the same time a large number of German fighters on a sweep were engaged and the aircraft seem to become mixed up as the 25 Spits V that were scrambled engaged both German and Italin aircraft. Losses were 2 x 109 (Lt Schumacher and Uffz Timmermann killed) 1 x Re2001 (Mar Pesavento killed), 1 x Spit V ( Sgt MacLean killed) others on both sides made it back to base badly damaged.
Fifth Raid - 30 x Ju88 with No Escort intercepted by 9 x Spit V. 3 x Ju88 lost, others and a Spit crash landed.

What I find interesting is the Italian contribution in the action. There is a quote in the book from one German bomber pilot who said that some (not all) of the bomber crews preferred Italians as the close escort as a 109 in a difficult position often dived away which left the bombers open to attack. The Italian fighters couldn't dive well so tended to stay in the fight diverting the RAF away from the bombers. Generally the above tended to follow that pattern.

Note in the above I ignored claims.

 

[Nikademus]

Do we know how many German/Italian bombers and fighters were lost to naval and ground AAA?

For what period/area? (Malta+naval?)

 

[Nikademus]

It doesn't give a breakdown as to how many Spitfires were lost to the 109 s. clearly the fighters went after the bombers (161 Ju 88s) and there were losses to German bombers, Italian fighters, operations over Sicily etc, not to mention the Spitfires lost on the ground to bombs and strafing.

My estimate suggests 144 Spitfires in trade for 82 Bf-109's for air to air based on a study of Shores's Malta book. Spitfires did tip the balance, remaining competitive against the maurauding Axis fighters while shooting down scores of bombers. (97 x Ju-88 alone)

 

[parsifal]

My estimate suggests 144 Spitfires in trade for 82 Bf-109's for air to air based on a study of Shores's Malta book. Spitfires did tip the balance, remaining competitive against the maurauding Axis fighters while shooting down scores of bombers. (97 x Ju-88 alone)

I think it would be more accurate to say 144 spitfires in exchange for everything else they (the spits) shot down), which is likley to include included 82 Me109s and 97 Ju88s. They must also be assumed to have shot down a large proportion of the 97 Italian fighters, and an unknown number of Italian bombers.

I will post the detaiols of the Spits delivered to the islkand later tonite, beginning in March 1942. Any axis losses suffered prior to April 1942 were due to hurricanes, since the first deliveries of Spits to the island in March were decimated by well timed Axis ground strikes. It was effectively May before Spits were in action effectively.

To be fair, until well into 1942, many of the german fighhters in the theatre were still the Me 109Es. It was really only after the introduction of the SpitVs that the germans found it necessary to feed in Me109Fs to the battle. I dont think (but am not sure) that there were any 109Gs in the med before the end of the year.

By October there would only be a fraction of the total fighters based on Malta as Hurricanes, given that no HGurricanes had been delivered to the island after March 1942

I am not sure that Malta can be seen as any sort of fair comparison. Malta was an island under siege, with the local forces heavily outnumbered most of the time, and easily the most bombed location on earth up to that time. The RAF was forced to operate under the most challenging conditions, but still returned a very creditable repply to the Axis attacks