Bf-109 vs Spitfire vs Fw-190 vs P-51

[Kurfürst]

To be fair, until well into 1942, many of the german fighhters in the theatre were still the Me 109Es. It was really only after the introduction of the SpitVs that the germans found it necessary to feed in Me109Fs to the battle. I dont think (but am not sure) that there were any 109Gs in the med before the end of the year.

Nope, wrong on all three accounts. You hardly find Emils with first line units by 1942, iirc some were used far up the North in remote places like Norway, most simply found their place to German OTUs. The 109Gs did make their appearance in the Med in short notice after their introduction in June, by the summer 1942. Black Six was captured in the late automn in Africa, for example.

I am not sure that Malta can be seen as any sort of fair comparison. Malta was an island under siege, with the local forces heavily outnumbered most of the time, and easily the most bombed location on earth up to that time. The RAF was forced to operate under the most challenging conditions, but still returned a very creditable repply to the Axis attacks.

When on Earth were they "heavily outnumbered" - the same silly story as Fighter Command being "outnumbered" in 1940? They did poorly, but thats all, its far more correct to say they were outnumbered at times, however, most of the time there was a single 109 Gruppe or so in Sicily, which kept shooting down RAF fighters and bombers, practically without losses in the beginning. They were outmatched, technically and tactically, but not outnumbered.

Besides I sense a that bit of contradiction between the select pieces of successfull intercepts, and the fact that Malta was indeed probably the most heavily bombed place on Earth. Why is that in all the examples presented, probing raids of Ju 88s are "forced" to turn back, and drop their bombs into the sea, yet at the same, somehow, it is unfair to make a comparison because the LW bombed the airfields and docs so heavily..

 

[Kurfürst]

For what period/area? (Malta+naval?)

Yes, Malta and the naval operation around it.

Considerable naval operations (Operation Harpoon, Vigorous, Pedestal etc.) were in the area, which came under heavy LW/RA attacks, and AAA and Fleet Air Arm shot down a number of Axis aircraft in the process.

British naval AAA and Fleet Air Arm fighters alone in Harpoon in June 1942 claimed 29 axis aircraft shot down - losses which are happily attributed here to Spitfires of course, while the losses of the Fleet Air Arm and conviniently forgotten about, as are British bombers shot down by 109s and Macchis..

 

[Glider]

When on Earth were they "heavily outnumbered" - the same silly story as Fighter Command being "outnumbered" in 1940? They did poorly, but thats all, its far more correct to say they were outnumbered at times, however, most of the time there was a single 109 Gruppe or so in Sicily, which kept shooting down RAF fighters and bombers, practically without losses in the beginning. They were outmatched, technically and tactically, but not outnumbered.

Did you read my earlier posting?

11th October
The first raid on the 11th consisted of seven KG54 JU88 escorted by 25 Machi 202 and 4 x 109. 19 x Spit V intercepted and it looks as if 1 x Ju88 and 1 x Machi 202 was shot down, no loss to Spitfires
19 Spits against 29 fighters and 7 bombers

Second Raid - 6 x Ju88 escorted by 65 fighters, 20 Spitfires intercepted, A number of aircraft on both sides were claimed but it doesn't look as if any were lost but the bombing did negligable damage. The fighters did keep the Spitfires off the bombers.
20 Spits against 65 fighters

Third raid - Similar to the second, again with a number of aircraft claimed and damaged but none lost in combat but a couple on both sides crash landed.
Unkown for sure but were certainly outnumbered.

Fourth raid - 16 x Ju88, 17 x Bomb carrying Re 2001 escorted by 25 x Mc202 at the same time a large number of German fighters on a sweep were engaged and the aircraft seem to become mixed up as the 25 Spits V that were scrambled engaged both German and Italin aircraft. Losses were 2 x 109 (Lt Schumacher and Uffz Timmermann killed) 1 x Re2001 (Mar Pesavento killed), 1 x Spit V ( Sgt MacLean killed) others on both sides made it back to base badly damaged.
25 Spits against 42 fighters and fighter bombers plus, a large german fighter sweep

You also have to ask yourself why if the Spitfires were ineffective against the Me109, did 7 bombers need an escort of 65 fighters?

If you think that I cherry picked this day it was picked as the result of an earlier posting. If you wish pick any other day and I will do a similar breakdown.

 

[Kurfürst]

You also have to ask yourself why if the Spitfires were ineffective against the Me109, did 7 bombers need an escort of 65 fighters?

Did it ever occured to you that the 7 bombers were just a bait to get Spitfires up, and then shoot them down with an overwhelming escort...? Obviously bombing wasn't a goal here - not with 7-8 bombers when they could have deployed far more at that time to bomb effectively- it was the get RAF fighters in the air.

 

[Glider]

Did it ever occured to you that the 7 bombers were just a bait to get Spitfires up, and then shoot them down with an overwhelming escort...? Obviously bombing wasn't a goal here - not with 7-8 bombers when they could have deployed far more at that time to bomb effectively- it was the get RAF fighters in the air.

As a plan it clearly failed and the overwhelming escort wasn't overwhelming enough as they lost more than the defending forces. Not a great advert for :-

a) The superior performance of the 109F
b) How well the Axis forces did against the (by your standards) poor performing RAF

 

[Juha]

Hello Kurfürst
How many Spits you think 5 full strenght RAF fighter sqns had, vs c. 125 Bf 109s of 4 Gruppen plus 4 Italian fighter Gruppi (nominally 27 fighters per Gruppo). And why you think LW concentrated c. 150 Ju 88s to Sicily plus Ju 87s and the Italian bombers. That the power relation of Oct 42 campaign but the small Beaufighter night fighter component ( a det from 89 Sqn) and the small Malta Strike force. If you have problems with our info and/or British sources please feel free to consult Prien's JG 53 history Vol 2 p. 485 on the background of and LW preparations for the offensive.

 

[bada]

Juha,
i've done till now the stats for the first 900 spit5b, still 2700 to go.

But all i can say, that it's not really glorious for ths spit5 till now.

The exact numbers Squadron assigned(with squad n°), maintenance unit, SOC(reasons) are at work and i'm on holidays right now. but from memory, i can say, that on the channel, there is a big amount of SOC-109 what means destroyed in aircombat by 109 and even a bigger number of "SOC-Unknown" what means the plane and it's pilot disappeared on the mission and nobody knows why,how and what was the cause.
those stats will take at least 3 months to finish (doing this at work )but when it's done, will post them here.

 

[Juha]

Hello Bada
As I have wrote earlier I'm not a big fan of Mk V, in fact I think that it was the low point of Spitfire story as IMHO G-6 was in 109 story if we forgot those very early F-1s with tail problem. Ironically both Mk V and G-6 were the most produced versions of their types.

All I want to say is that even Vokes Spit Vs could do rather well when rightly employed by a good team. Park was excellent fighter commander and the pilots and fighter controllers on Malta seemed to have been a top class team in Oct 42.

Juha

 

[bada]

juha,
just cherry picking here, but the most produced spit was the M9LF with M66. 3981Units (but not all of them delivered in the WWII! )

 

[NZTyphoon]

I will post the detaiols of the Spits delivered to the islkand later tonite, beginning in March 1942. Any axis losses suffered prior to April 1942 were due to hurricanes, since the first deliveries of Spits to the island in March were decimated by well timed Axis ground strikes. It was effectively May before Spits were in action effectively.

So it was 45 Hurricanes and 148 Spitfires lost in the air against 64 Bf 109s lost (and three 110) as per the earlier post.

KF's reasoning that all Spitfires were destroyed in the air is completely erroneous: poor organisation on the ground for the first delivery of 47 Spitfires off USS Wasp ("Operation Calender" 20 April) led to most of them being stranded on the airfields while the Luftwaffe was left free to bomb and ground strafe. Result was by 22 April 9 had been destroyed on the ground with 26 badly damaged by bomb splinters. This was rectified by the time the next delivery of 64 Spitfires from the Wasp and Eagle (Operation Bowery 8 May) and the Spitfires were able to meet the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica raids in far larger numbers.

Did it ever occured to you that the 7 bombers were just a bait to get Spitfires up, and then shoot them down with an overwhelming escort...? Obviously bombing wasn't a goal here - not with 7-8 bombers when they could have deployed far more at that time to bomb effectively- it was the get RAF fighters in the air.

In other words things changed between May and October, coincidental with Spitfires being delivered in quantity and the RAF fighters adopting more effective tactics. Fact is that the mighty Luftwaffe, like the RAF over France in 1941, was reduced to using its Ju 88s in penny packets protected by large numbers of fighters. Result was Ju 88s were losing 50% of their strength on some days - meaning the escorts had failed to protect the bombers - while the 109s were not shooting down huge numbers of Spitfire Vs.

 

[Glider]

KF's reasoning that all Spitfires were destroyed in the air is completely erroneous: poor organisation on the ground for the first delivery of 47 Spitfires off USS Wasp ("Operation Calender" 20 April) led to most of them being stranded on the airfields while the Luftwaffe was left free to bomb and ground strafe. Result was by 22 April 9 had been destroyed on the ground with 26 badly damaged by bomb splinters. This was rectified by the time the next delivery of 64 Spitfires from the Wasp and Eagle (Operation Bowery 8 May) and the Spitfires were able to meet the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica raids in far larger numbers. .

To be fair to Kurfurst, the figures of 148 Spits and 45 Hurricanes are the ones lost in the air and exclude those destroyed on the ground.

 

[Juha]

Hello Bada
I'm thinking the subtypes as a blocks, IIRC c. 6500 Mk Vs vs c. 5600 Mk IXs. Too difficult to remember all those subversion other than IIRC only 94 Mk Vas but all those HFs, Fs and LFs and Vbs/VBs and VCs etc too much to old man's memory.

Juha

 

[NZTyphoon]

To be fair to Kurfurst, the figures of 148 Spits and 45 Hurricanes are the ones lost in the air and exclude those destroyed on the ground.

Lemme see... (picks up Shores, Cull and Malizia p. 646)...gottit...Ah well, don't mind admitting when I'm wrong. 8)

 

[Nikademus]

I think it would be more accurate to say 144 spitfires in exchange for everything else they (the spits) shot down), which is likley to include included 82 Me109s and 97 Ju88s. They must also be assumed to have shot down a large proportion of the 97 Italian fighters, and an unknown number of Italian bombers.

The score for the Spit in 42 from my study:

Luftwaffe:

82 x Bf-109
11 x Ju-87
97 x Ju-88
1 x He-111
3 x Do-24

R.Aero.

26 x MC-202
25 x Re-2001
1 x S-82
2 x S-79
3 x S-84
2 x Z-506B
8 x Z-1007bis
4 x Ju-87(Ita)
1 x BR-20M
1 x RS-14

 

[Nikademus]

Yes, Malta and the naval operation around it.

Considerable naval operations (Operation Harpoon, Vigorous, Pedestal etc.) were in the area, which came under heavy LW/RA attacks, and AAA and Fleet Air Arm shot down a number of Axis aircraft in the process.

British naval AAA and Fleet Air Arm fighters alone in Harpoon in June 1942 claimed 29 axis aircraft shot down - losses which are happily attributed here to Spitfires of course, while the losses of the Fleet Air Arm and conviniently forgotten about, as are British bombers shot down by 109s and Macchis..

AA estimates for 1942 Malta (including the related naval/convoy battles)

Luftwaffe: 72

17 x Bf-109
1 x Bf-110
9 x Ju-87
45 x Ju-88

R. Aero: 24

2 x MC-202
12 x S-79
4 x S-84
2 x Z-1007bis
3 x Ju-87(Ita)
1 x BR-20M

 

[Juha]

Hello Nikademus
thanks a lot for sharing that very interesting info!
So Spit Vs shot down 133 fighters + 134 bombers etc while losing 148 (-those shot down by AA over Sicily) Spit Mk Vs, or were those 148 Spits lost in air combat only. Or do you mean that 144 Spits were lost while they shot down 82 109s and extra xx Spits were lost while they shot down the rest of their victims?

Juha

 

[Nikademus]

Hello Nikademus
thanks a lot for sharing that very interesting info!
So Spit Vs shot down 133 fighters + 134 bombers etc while losing 148 (-those shot down by AA over Sicily) Spit Mk Vs, or were those 148 Spits lost in air combat only.

Juha

Approximately. . My study suggests 204 Spitfires lost to air action vs. Shores' 214 (the page 646 summary states that the author suggests the summary result was 148 + 66 force landed/crash landed due to combat damage) I was happy that my tick tack page by page came within 10 planes of his summary. The difference is most likely explained by different interpretations on a "combat loss" vs. op loss etc. One of the lost Spits came at the hands of another Spit!

Additionally, at least 33 Spits were destroyed on the ground, 2 to AA, 59 to operational causes, and 6 to Friendly AA. (not so friendly!)

Non-109 air losses included:

28 to MC-202
6 to Re-2001
15 to Ju-88
1 to Z-1007bis
1 to S-84

It should be noted that there is a big controversey documented in the book in several places whereby German "records" are hotly disputed by RAF veterans. In more than one big battle the Germans claimed they either lost no or very few planes while the RAF insisted that they got more than the Germans would admit. The page 646 summary showed the Jagdwaffe "admitting" to only 55 losses over Malta from combat. There were a high # of instances of alleged "engine failure" on return trips by 109s. Its possible that more than one of these mechanical failures was due to combat damage.

 

[Nikademus]

Did it ever occured to you that the 7 bombers were just a bait to get Spitfires up, and then shoot them down with an overwhelming escort...? Obviously bombing wasn't a goal here - not with 7-8 bombers when they could have deployed far more at that time to bomb effectively- it was the get RAF fighters in the air.

When the fighters escorted, the goal was to get maximum results on the ground and protect the bombers. For pure fighter killing, the most successful tactic employed was the Rotte sized free hunt, particularily if they could arrange it during the end of a Spit reinforcement ferry run. They scored heavily in one such interception.

When the #'s were tallied up, the Axis destroyed and damaged a huge swath of planes on the ground making a substantial contribution to the attrition level on the island. (204 destroyed in 1942 alone + many damaged)

 

[Juha]

Hello Nikademus
Thanks a lot for clarifications.

Juha

 

[parsifal]

Nope, wrong on all three accounts. You hardly find Emils with first line units by 1942, iirc some were used far up the North in remote places like Norway, most simply found their place to German OTUs. The 109Gs did make their appearance in the Med in short notice after their introduction in June, by the summer 1942. Black Six was captured in the late automn in Africa, for example.



When on Earth were they "heavily outnumbered" - the same silly story as Fighter Command being "outnumbered" in 1940? They did poorly, but thats all, its far more correct to say they were outnumbered at times, however, most of the time there was a single 109 Gruppe or so in Sicily, which kept shooting down RAF fighters and bombers, practically without losses in the beginning. They were outmatched, technically and tactically, but not outnumbered.

Besides I sense a that bit of contradiction between the select pieces of successfull intercepts, and the fact that Malta was indeed probably the most heavily bombed place on Earth. Why is that in all the examples presented, probing raids of Ju 88s are "forced" to turn back, and drop their bombs into the sea, yet at the same, somehow, it is unfair to make a comparison because the LW bombed the airfields and docs so heavily..

Main source for me at this point is "The Campaign For North AfricaRichard Berg Albert Nofi and James Dunnigan, Simulations Publication 1979. I believe it remains the standard text at both Sandhurst and Duntroon, for Trainee Officers in their Military History units. I also used Aircraft Carriers In WWII Norman Polmar, with assistance by Minoru Genda, Eric Brown and Professor Robert Langdon.McDonald Co, 1969. This 741 page book remains the best single volume work on carrier operations during the war ion my opinion

Now firstly to your opinion that Mer 109Es were not present during the battle. The folowing are the German aircraft receipts for the Med TO from January through to December 1942. CNA gives the arrivals on a weekly basis, but I have simplified this by simply reporting their arrivals per month:

1/42: 12 x Me 109E, 48ME 109F, 15 x ME 110, 15 Ju88C, 6 HE 111, 12 Ju 52, 15 Ju87D, 6 Ju88
2/42: 36 ME109E, 12 ME 109F, 15Me110, 18JU88C, 18He111, 30Ju87, 12Ju88
3/42: 9 Me109E, 45ME109F, 15Me110, 12Ju52, 15Ju87, 12 Ju88D
4/42: 36Me109E, 40Me109F, 12ME110, 18Ju88C, 6AR196, 6Ju87
5/42: 30Me109E, 36Me109F, 12FW200, 12He111, 18Ju52, 24Ju87, 30 Ju88
6/42: 15Me109F, 48Me109G, 30Ju88D, 12He111, 15 Ju52, 10Ju87
7/42: 20Me109F, 18Me109G, 12 Ju88C, 12 Ju52, 12Ju87
8/42: 36 Me109G, 15 Ju88C, 12 Ju52, 12 Ju87
9/42: 45 Me109G, 18 Ju52, 12 Ju88, 12 He111, 12 Ju87,
10/42: 12 Me 109G, 12He111, 12 Ju87D, 6 Ju88,
11/42: Nil


I concede that I was wrong with regards to the arrival of the the Me 109G, I also concede that the the Me 109F had been arriving from the middle of 1941. It had started arriving from July 1941. However, the dominant type for the LW in the Med remained the ME 109E throughout 1941. It outnumbered the F subtype in terms of arrivals by about 2:1 until December 1941, and even continued to arrive in dribs and drabs during the first quarter of 1942.

There are one or two corrections in the above list compared to that given in CNA. CNA says that the ME109G arrived in quatity from April, I believe they are in error here. I have listed the 109Fs as 109Es, and the 109Gs as 109Fs. I may be wrong for those months therefore, though other reference material that I do have suggests otherwise

You will notice also that Ju88 bombers were not received in great numbers. The majority of Ju88s were in fact of the fighter subtypes. However the Luftwaffe had received significant numbers of Ju88 bombers prior to 1942.

Now, so far as the arrivals of spits and Hurricanes to Malta were concerned, Polmar provides the following list for 1942

Mar 07 1942 (Operation "Spotter"), 15 Spits
Mar 21 1942 (Operation "Picket I") 9 Spits
Mar 29 1942 (Operation "Picket II) 7 Spits
SUBTOTAL (March) 31 Spits, 0 Hurris

Apr 20 1942 (Operation "Calendar") 46 Spits
SUBTOTAL (April) 46 Spits, 0 Hurris

May 09 1942 (Operation "Bowery") 60 Spits
May 19 1942 (Operation "L.B") 17 Spits
SUBTOTAL (May) 77 Spits, 0 Hurris

June03 1942 (Operation "Style) 27 Spits
June 09 1942 (Operation "Salient") 32 Spits
SUBTOTAL (June) 59 Spits, 0 Hurris

July15 1942 (Operation "Pinpoint") 31 Spits
July 21 1942 (Operation "Insect") 28 Spits
SUBTOTAL (July) : 59 Spits

Aug 11 1942 (Operation "Bellows" part of "Pedestal") 37 Spits
Aug 17 1942 (Operation "Buritone") 29 Spits
SUBTOTAL (August) 66 Spits, 0 Hurris
SUBTOTAL (September) 0 Spits, 0 Hurris

Oct 29 1942 (Operation "Train") 29 Spits
SUBTOTAL (October) 29 Spits

There were no convoys for November or December, but after the victory at Alamein there may have been air tranfers from the Desert Air Force. However, assuming the main operational type for Malta remained the Spit, transfers to Malta in November and December could not have exceeded 30 aircraft, since this was the maximum number arriving in the ME during that period

FAA arrivals at Malta were extremely limited, and are likley not to have exceeded more than 12 Fulmars for the whole of 1942.

I dont have accurate figures for Beafighter arrivals specifically to malta, however for the wehole of the ME command, during 1942, ther were 309 Beafighter arrivals for the whole of the theatre. As I said, I dont know how many of these were transferred to Malta.

However, adding up the fighter numbers that could potentially be available over Malta during 1942, we arrive at the following

German 633 F
Brits 367 Spits

plus something less than 367 Beafighters, and perhaps a dozen or so Fulmars. Then we have to factor in the Italians, which are not an insubstantial force.

It is simply untrue to argue that the RAF over maltas enjoyed superiority of numbers. In the entire theatre, yes, thats correct, but the majority of aircraft in Egypt and Gibraltar had no impact on the battle over malta. The Germans could, and did, redeply their forces enmasse, because they were operating from interior lines

As for FC being outnumbered being a "silly story", I suggest you go and read some of the posts made in rlation to your claim on that. Numerous people have pointed out the flaw in your logic on this, something you refuse to accept, just as you refuse to accept that the LW lost the battle....simply achieved all their aims, got tired of the battle packed up and went home as I recall