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- #61
Bf-110 successor
- Thread starter tomo pauk
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davebender
1st Lieutenant
Only because RLM refused to produce DB603 engines on a large scale.
If you look at images you'll see how closely attached to or even partly integrated into the wing the DB 601/605 installation was. A BMW 801 would have to be atached more forward. Even the Ju 88 had some CoG problems with the 801 as it was not originally designed for such an engine.
The DB 603 was ear marked for other aircraft than the Bf 110.
The Bf 110 was planned to soldier on with the DB 605 until production would cease in the second half of 1944. We know that this didn't happen,but the RLM planners who made the decision early in 1943 didn't.
Steve
The Bf 110 was planned to soldier on with the DB 605 until production would cease in the second half of 1944. We know that this didn't happen,but the RLM planners who made the decision early in 1943 didn't.
Steve
davebender
1st Lieutenant
That's just another way of saying RLM didn't procure enough DB603 engines to meet demand of aircraft manufacturers.
wuzak
Captain
Isn't that like saying the MoD didn't procure enough Merlin 61s to power a new version of the Hurricane?
- Thread starter
- #68
Agreed with much you've said.
Plenty of people (me included) often forget that Bf-110 was initially fielded with light Jumo-210 engines, the installation of DB-601 being counter-balanced with radiator installed behind CoG.
The figures for the percentage of expenditure on flak as a percentage of total military expenditure for 1941 that I quoted come from the USSBS. You'll need to look at Volume 3 "Effects of Strategic Bombing On the German War Economy." The data is towards the end,my page reference for the 2nd (1947) edition is 280 but I can't promise that is correct and I'm not checking now!
Steve
Steve
unlucky online is available the edition of 1945, About Volume 3 - The Effects of Strategic Bombing on the German War Economy - War Archives Management System
on page 295 of pdf, table 113 "percentage distribution of the production of weapons and ammunition......" this is well different from total military expenditure
the AA in the weapons go from 14% of 1st quarter of 1940 to 30% of 1st quarter of 1945, in the ammunitons from 18% to 28%
on page 295 of pdf, table 113 "percentage distribution of the production of weapons and ammunition......" this is well different from total military expenditure
the AA in the weapons go from 14% of 1st quarter of 1940 to 30% of 1st quarter of 1945, in the ammunitons from 18% to 28%
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I've replied in this thread.
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/why-bf-110-obsolete-night-fighter-35117-4.html
As I got my wires crossed between two seperate threads earlier.
Steve
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/why-bf-110-obsolete-night-fighter-35117-4.html
As I got my wires crossed between two seperate threads earlier.
Steve
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
There is nothing the Me-210 can do which the Ju-288 can´t. There are MANY things, the Ju-288 can do which the Me-210 can´t.
Stop production of the Me-210/-410 and Bf-110 all along with Ju-88A´s, He-111´s and He-177´s and replace them in production by the uniform Ju-288A model.
The Ju-288 and the derated version (cleared for 1,850 hp, 1 hour cruise instead of 2,450 hp designed 10 min take off power) of the Jumo-222A1 and -B1 were ready to go into serial production by mid 1941. A whole factory close to Vienna had been tooled for it´s mass production. The dropping of this engine -along with the Ju-288A was a political decision, not a technical or industrial one to crush the dominance of Junkers.
Even without the Jumo-222, the Ju-288 could have been propelled by other and more readily aviable engines:
Jumo-211J (top speed = 560 km/h, cruise = 515 km/h, take off roll 1300m to clear 20m)
BMW-801G (top speed = 575 km/h, cruise = 540 km/h, take off roll 1200m to clear 20m) -not aviable in quantity
BMW-801A (top speed = 550 km/h, cruise = 510 km/h, take off roll 1230m to clear 20m)
Db-605A (top speed = 565 km/h, cruise = 518 km/h, take off roll 1250m to clear 20m)
Db-601E/F (top speed = 545 km/h, cruise = 505 km/h, take off roll 1340m to clear 20m)
Db-603A (top speed =590 km/h, cruise = 550 km/h, take off roll 1150m to clear 20m) -not aviable in quantity
Jumo-213
The suggestion is to use Jumo-211J or BMW-801 engines initially, lighten up the airframe a bit (getting rid of the outer wingtanks and limit payload to 3 ton max until a more powerful engine becomes aviable) then switch to BMW-801G or Db-603A to restore all range and load taking capabilities (5 ton max. bombload) and finally introduce the Jumo-213E/F to get a 600 km/h bomber.
Stop production of the Me-210/-410 and Bf-110 all along with Ju-88A´s, He-111´s and He-177´s and replace them in production by the uniform Ju-288A model.
The Ju-288 and the derated version (cleared for 1,850 hp, 1 hour cruise instead of 2,450 hp designed 10 min take off power) of the Jumo-222A1 and -B1 were ready to go into serial production by mid 1941. A whole factory close to Vienna had been tooled for it´s mass production. The dropping of this engine -along with the Ju-288A was a political decision, not a technical or industrial one to crush the dominance of Junkers.
Even without the Jumo-222, the Ju-288 could have been propelled by other and more readily aviable engines:
Jumo-211J (top speed = 560 km/h, cruise = 515 km/h, take off roll 1300m to clear 20m)
BMW-801G (top speed = 575 km/h, cruise = 540 km/h, take off roll 1200m to clear 20m) -not aviable in quantity
BMW-801A (top speed = 550 km/h, cruise = 510 km/h, take off roll 1230m to clear 20m)
Db-605A (top speed = 565 km/h, cruise = 518 km/h, take off roll 1250m to clear 20m)
Db-601E/F (top speed = 545 km/h, cruise = 505 km/h, take off roll 1340m to clear 20m)
Db-603A (top speed =590 km/h, cruise = 550 km/h, take off roll 1150m to clear 20m) -not aviable in quantity
Jumo-213
The suggestion is to use Jumo-211J or BMW-801 engines initially, lighten up the airframe a bit (getting rid of the outer wingtanks and limit payload to 3 ton max until a more powerful engine becomes aviable) then switch to BMW-801G or Db-603A to restore all range and load taking capabilities (5 ton max. bombload) and finally introduce the Jumo-213E/F to get a 600 km/h bomber.
By discarding the whole "Zerstörer" idea, that failed already in the Battle of Britain.
Single engined fighters were capable of similar range, as the A6M and the later P-51 proved.
Ju-88 was better night fighter (because the endurance) than the Bf-110.
Not a bad idea with the benefit of hindsight
The RLM/Luftwaffe just wouldn't let it go. They did adjust the criteria and,late on,start using the terms heavy fighter and destroyer interchangeably..
Cheers
Steve
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Ju-288 was somewhat large and (probably) expensive for use as a night fighter aircraft.
Bomber is an entirely different matter but that wasn't a Me-110 role.
Bomber is an entirely different matter but that wasn't a Me-110 role.
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
The Ju288 grew in size with the -B and -C model. The -A model was the same size as the He-219 nightfighter, and considerably smaller than the Do-217J /-N nightfighter. As a matter of fact, the Ju388 was developed into a potent nightfighter despite beeing considerably larger than the Ju-288A.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
He-219 was also a rather large and expensive aircraft.
Don't get me wrong, I think Ju-288 and Do-317 were fabulous level bombers. But I'm not convinced they are the best choice for a night fighter aircraft.
Me-110 was fine through 1942. After that DB603 or Jumo 213 powered Ju-88 was an ideal compromise between low cost, aerial performance and adequate interior space for all the new electronic equipment.
Don't get me wrong, I think Ju-288 and Do-317 were fabulous level bombers. But I'm not convinced they are the best choice for a night fighter aircraft.
Me-110 was fine through 1942. After that DB603 or Jumo 213 powered Ju-88 was an ideal compromise between low cost, aerial performance and adequate interior space for all the new electronic equipment.
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
The Bf110 was just a diversion of resources; the Ju88 was really capable of all of that and more. The only thing the Ju88 couldn't do that the Bf110 was tasked for was that of long range escort, which brings up back to the Fw187.
As it was the Ju88 and its successors should have been the only bomber that Germany fielded: the Do 217, Bf110/Me210/Me410, He177/He277 (the mechanical failure that it was), Ju290/390, and later He111 were all redundant to the German war effort once the Ju88A4 comes online. After that all production should have been focused on the Ju88/188/288/388, though really there should have been no He177/277s produced because they were a waste of resources from 1942 on.
Full throttle Ju88 and its derivatives production was the only option from 1941 on. The Ju87 was still necessary, to be replaced with the Hs129 and Fw190 ground attack version from 1943 on.
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
Double Post.
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