Bf-110 successor

[tomo pauk]

How would the Fw-187 fared as a night fighter - (the successor of the Bf-110 need to beat the 110 itself in that role)? Requirements including: second crew member accommodation, comprehensive electronics set, Schraege Musik, heavy frontal firepower, decent fuel tankage.

 

[razor1uk]

We'll never truely know I fear since the glue never worked well for long, even without the glue factory being destroyed in a raid.
But I imagine it could've been utilised much like its allied name-sake...

 

[tomo pauk]

You are thinking of Ta-154 Moskito?

 

[cimmex]

We'll never truely know I fear since the glue never worked well for long, even without the glue factory being destroyed in a raid.
But I imagine it could've been utilised much like its allied name-sake...

Fw 187 was a metal plane, Ta 154 was wooden
cimmex

 

[davebender]

The historical Fw-187A fuselage had a 2nd crew member but was probably too small for for a bunch of radar equipment. We can only speculate as to whether the fuselage interior could be enlarged enough for a night fighter. I suspect Dr. Tank could get the job done if RLM provided funding.

Firepower wasn't an issue. Except for the 3cm Mk 101 cannon the Fw-187A carried the same nose mounted weapons as the Me-110C. 2 x 2cm MG/FF cannon plus 4 x 7.92mm machineguns.

 

[razor1uk]

Cheers Cimmex... that little twin tank escaped my memory

 

[Denniss]

The Ta 154 evolved from the Fw 187 just it had to be converted to use wood for many parts. Tank may have developed a larger Fw 187 or all-metal Ta 154 by 1942 if properly tasked and funded by RLM.

 

[davebender]

Looks like a completely different aircraft to me. What design features did the Ta-154 share with the Fw-187?

 

[davebender]

The Me-109Z could possibly succeed the Me-110 as a night fighter. The radar operator would sit in the starboard cockpit, which could be rearranged a bit. Put four MG151/20 cannon in the center wing section.

I don't know if this is the best solution but the post-war P-82 Twin Mustang has proven that the concept will work.

 

[Denniss]

Ju 88 G-6 was seen as nearly perfect night fighter, Do 335 types were nearing completetion, even Me 262 types were flying around. So why bother to develop another one ?

 

[davebender]

Me-110 successor was designed during 1939 to 1940 and perfected during 1941 to 1942.

There were no DB603, Jumo 213, BMW801 or jet engines during 1940 (prototypes excepted). That's why 1940 Germany must design a successor to the Me-110 night fighter that will be powered by readily available DB601 or Jumo 211 engines.

Historically RLM funded development of the Me-109Z durng 1942. Same time frame that RLM cancelled funding for the Me-210C.

If RLM cancels the Me-210 two years early (i.e. 1940) it triggers development of something else as a Me-110 night fighter replacement. That replacement could be the Me-109Z. Early prototypes would be based on the Me-109E rather then the Me-109F. Production aircraft (if any) would still be based on the Me-109F or Me-109G.

 

[zoomar]

The Bf-109Z is a creative suggestion that uses lots of existing jigs and tools and could have an excellent heavy fighter with or without an extra crew position. Likewize, the Do-335 might fit the bill. I suspect the Fw-187 would not have the growth potential. It was designed as a high performance single seater and the two seat variant always looked to me like an attempt to keep the project alive by squeezing a second crew member into a plane that was never designed for more than one. Had the Ta-154 not had the glue problems, it could have been an outstanding plane.

 

[tomo pauk]

Wonder how good/bad the metallic, instead of wooden Ta-154 would've performed? Seem like the smallest feasible package for all the NF requirements (2 crew members, radar other electronics, hefty punch).

 

[Shortround6]

The 109Z looks like a solution in search of a question. While it might have made a decent bomber interceptor with heavy armament, any attempt to stretch it to other roles sound like a desperate salesman's pitch. It was a small airplane for a twin. Little bigger than a normal P-51. It gets it's brochure range by using the second cockpit area as a fuel tank so any hypothetical roles that require a second crew member ( like night fighter) bring you back to a range/endurance only a bit better than a normal 109. The wing loading certainly puts it in the boom and zoom category. Landing and take off would certainly be interesting too.

 

[spicmart]

The Bf-109Z is a creative suggestion that uses lots of existing jigs and tools and could have an excellent heavy fighter with or without an extra crew position. Likewize, the Do-335 might fit the bill. I suspect the Fw-187 would not have the growth potential. It was designed as a high performance single seater and the two seat variant always looked to me like an attempt to keep the project alive by squeezing a second crew member into a plane that was never designed for more than one. Had the Ta-154 not had the glue problems, it could have been an outstanding plane.

Regarding the Fw 187 I think it would have been possible to make it into an effective night fighter as the Sea Hornet NF 21 night fighter proved which had as slim a fuselage as the Fw 187.

 

[spicmart]

A metal Ta 154 would have been lighter, wonder how much though.

 

[davebender]

Aircraft empty weight. From various sources.
3,700kg. Fw-187.
5,089kg. Me-110G4
5,440kg. Me-210C.
6,600kg. Ta-154A1.
8,560kg. Ju-88C.
11,200kg. He-219A7.

I think the 6,600kg Ta-154 is at the upper end of the weight scale for acceptable performance with 1,350hp DB601E or 1,340hp Jumo 211F engines. DB603 engines would entirely change the equation. But if you have DB603 engines then you may as well produce the Ju-88G.

 

[RAGMAN]

i always wondered how the 110 would have performed with the bmw engines (from the fw 190 ) i dont know if the body had to be redesigned for the different engines though

 

[davebender]

By 1944 versions of the DB605 engine were producing 1,800 hp. That should be enough for the relatively lightweight Me-110 airframe.

 

[Denniss]

The BMW 801 would not be suitable for the Bf 110 - CoG would move too far forward. The required ballast to balance this out would neglect all performance gains.