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Hello Soren
As an engineer you should know that without the weight info saying over 12 G is rather meaningless.
And according to a message on another site by Ruy Horta a Rechlin test report dated 15-2-1939 stated that Bf 109E, flight weight 2200kg (very light weight for even E-1, if correct), could stand up to 8G, after which "deformation" would lead to permanent damage even if the a/c was built for up to 10,8G before actual catastrophic failure.
I agree with Kurfürst that 109 was a good fighter with excellent powerloading and acceleration and so well suited vertical manoeuvres and same time it had benign stall characteristics and fairly good horizontal manoeuvrability. Minuses were heavy control forces at high speeds, restricted vision from cockpit etc.
Juha
IIRC the 109F wing was only different from the Emil by virtue of cannon/ammo removed plus rounded tips? Did the G have a strengthened wing to accomodate the growth in weight - or remain the same?
How much difference would the radiator arrangement have made? It was given a significant overhaul in design on the F over the E.I can't say for the 109F wing. The general internal structure does seem the same or very similiar as on the Emil, but I don't know the details of the material strength. However the planform changed, as did some important aerodynamic details (position and size of slats, introduction of Frise type ailerons)
What I know is the 109E had a much beefed up wing compared to the earlier Emils.
I can't say for the 109F wing. The general internal structure does seem the same or very similiar as on the Emil, but I don't know the details of the material strenght. However the planform changed, as did some important aerodynamic details (position and size of slats, introduction of Frise type ailerons)
The G-wing was beefed up, see Kurfrst - Leistungzusammenstellung Me 109 G. : verstärkter Flügel (Holm, Rippen, Beplankung)
The limit load for all late 109G/K is given as 6.5 G at 3300 kg (roughly full take off weight). Earlier G series were rated 6.7 G.
At 6.5 for takeoff weight, the ultimate should have been ~ 9.7G (+/- ) at 3300..
AFAIK the Germans used safety factor of 1.8 (ratio of ultimate load/limit load), where as British /Americans used 1.5. So it is better to compare ultimate loads rather than limit loads.
Perhaps just the opposite T.
Limit loads are set at elastic deformation point in yield..
Until you don't know the exact German definition for limit load, you are just guessing. Hence my suggestion for using the ultimate load.
Are you suggesting the German engineers have a different definition from our engineers for Design Limit load?
If they used a Ultimate Load Factor of 1.8 over Design Load then they were designing well below the elastic Yield point to derive the Limit Load boundaries
I have actually read something to the contrary.many of the destruct tests demonstrated consistent failure points at close to 1.5.
The 109 actually needed just one improvement to become a lot more lethal in the air, and that was a shift from steel wire control to push rod control like in the 190. That would've made stick forces much lighter at high speeds, and a 109 with light stick forces at high speeds would've been a nightmare for the Allies.
Their definitions were probably the same:
-Limit Loads are the maximum loads expected in service.
-There shall be no permanent deformation of the structure at limit load.
Then why did you say this to me? "Until you don't know the exact German definition for limit load, you are just guessing. Hence my suggestion for using the ultimate load."
Note that the line above does not equal to yours "Limit loads are set at elastic deformation point in yield".
Actually it does. When a material reaches elastic deformation point under load, it IS at permanent set... or permanent deformation" in point two above... and does not rebound to former dimensions. What are you arguing about?
-Ultimate loads are defined as the limit loads times a safety factor.
-The structure must be able to withstand the ultimate load without failure.
Then may we stipiulate that German, US and Brit structural design philosophy are essentially the same as I stated earlier?
And BTW there is no such thing as "MUST be able to withstand the ultimate load without failure" - it is "We have used 1.5 as a Hoped for useful factor which we pray will enable the airframe to survive this stress but there are no guarantees or warranties expressed or implied - bring it back if it fails and we'll take a look at it'>
>I then followed up with a comment to your "1.8" factor" for Ultimate by saying " If they used a Ultimate Load Factor of 1.8 over Design Load then they were designing well below the elastic Yield point to derive the Limit Load boundaries"<
>And you just said<
This is quite obvious.
So, which is "obvious"??
The Germans designed well below Yield for Design Limit Load - contrary to US and Brit practices? or,
the "1.8X" factor was a figure you regurgitated with no knowledge of the practices of German engineers,
or, it is obvious that airframe structures engineering is not your core knowledge base but you wished to sound knowlegable??
> I then said "many of the destruct tests demonstrated consistent failure points at close to 1.5." and you just said<
I have actually read something to the contrary.
Welch,
With a climb rate of 5,000 + ft/min, a top speed of 719 km/h and a turn performance close to that of the Spitfire, the Bf-109 would've proven probably the best piston engined fighter in the air if the control forces had been as light as in the Fw-190.