Build a better Sea Hurricane 1938

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Wes,

I haver never flown with a character or in a squadron with that complete attitude. Each weapon system has it's own "group" traits / personality. In my experience USN fighter squadrons have more of what you mention above, in particularly the Tomcat folks. There is internal competition in fighter squadrons, in particular Eagles, however they entire program is designed to get everyone up to as high a level as they can attain (in an Eagle Squad). If someone goes out and beats my arse, in the debrief he will show me what I did wrong, or what he did better in order for "us" to raise the bar. From the times I fought Tomcats I saw that they didn't have the same mentality, as guys would keep "secrets" on how to do things better. It was as if each guy was on his own to get better with out the group instruction mentality. Also the guy who landed on the boat the best was made an IP, not the guy who could kick everyone else's arse.

In the USAF off time is just that. No one comments or watches unless Johnny Law gets involved or it appears someone might have a drinking problem (only seen that one once). I'm not sure how the USN approaches that, but from what I've seen the USMC squadrons are very much watching what you do (they have their shiza in one sock) but only from the perspective of being respectful, honorable, and not causing a bad light to shine in their direction (old school but in a good way). They also fight / train / like Eagle guys (at least in my day) and were always putting strong effort into their flying.

As for the previously mentioned drink blowing out my nose, that was from laughing as it was a true bullseye remark! The unfortunate side of email, texting, forum communication is perspective can be missed due to lack of face to face comm. I laughed long and hard at your comment due to it's accuracy, and in no way thought our communication was getting personal or into the spear chucking arena.

Cheers,
Biff
 
BiffF15 said:
I haver never flown with a character or in a squadron with that complete attitude. Each weapon system has it's own "group" traits / personality. In my experience USN fighter squadrons have more of what you mention above,
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I think it has a lot to do with lifestyle and group dynamics. USAF and to a lesser extent USMC fighter pilots have the luxury of a private life. They are more dispersed with fewer squadrons per base and less concentration of their living and social arrangements. Even within their service they have more contact and interaction with people outside their aircraft community.
Not so in the Navy. Squadrons are grouped by aircraft type in " Master Jet Bases", where all F/A-18 outfits, for example, are at one east coast base and one west coast. Same goes for other aircraft types, except ASW VP outfits, but they don't hit the boat so they don't count.
This makes for a concentrated and cohesive aircraft community which is useful for standardization and training, but not very diverse in cultural influences (ie: the "football locker room" atmosphere). Bear in mind they're only home for two or three months at a time working up for the next deployment, and probably living in base housing unless they're senior officers. Then they spend seven to nine months cooped up in steel cubicles with their squadron mates with few recreational or social options besides the ready room and the gym, and flying circadian-disruptive schedules where every landing has the intensity and potential consequences of combat. Operational accidents claim one or two crews every deployment. Do you wonder that the atmosphere is a cross between a shark tank and an NFL locker room (minus the female reporters!)? The infamous Tailhook Scandal came as no surprise to me. I'd be interested to see the long term effect that female pilots in deploying squadrons are having on the culture.
Cheers,
Wes
 
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BiffF15 said:
Also the guy who landed on the boat the best was made an IP, not the guy who could kick everyone else's arse.
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The Navy has always lost more aviators to the boat than they ever did to the bad guys.
You landlubber types have the life of Riley, free to concentrate on the mission, fewer collateral duty distractions, mostly a normal working day, mostly home at night, social life, female companionship, etc. Even the option of living in the civilian world after hours (not economically feasible for most Navy JOs near a Master Jet Base).
Cheers,
Wes
 
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BiffF15 said:
Also the guy who landed on the boat the best was made an IP, not the guy who could kick everyone else's arse.
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XBe02Drvr said:
The Navy has always lost more aviators to the boat than they ever did to the bad guys.
Cheers,
Wes
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On the race track I and everyone else found someone riding with a "red mist" very easy to beat, being angry and aggressive does not change the laws of physics. It made no difference to me how big any guy I raced against was, if we go bouncing up the track he would get hurt just as much as anyone else, it is a different type of aggression and positivity.

In any case any social activity with fellow competitors does not involve being killed. I well remember a guy in the paddock giving it "large" with his pseudo hells angel mates, he was a completely different character stood on the start grid, looking around as if he dearly wanted to be somewhere else, preferably with his mum.
 
pbehn said:
I well remember a guy in the paddock giving it "large" with his pseudo hells angel mates, he was a completely different character stood on the start grid, looking around as if he dearly wanted to be somewhere else, preferably with his mum.
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Some got the "right stuff", some don't.
Cheers,
Wes
 
XBe02Drvr said:
Some got the "right stuff", some don't.
Cheers,
Wes
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That is true, but everyone is nervous before their first race, I imagine every pilot is nervous before they first go solo. Almost every soldiers accounts of battle has said those who say they were not scared are lying. The question is how you deal with that fear, the guy I was talking about looked beaten before the flag dropped for the start, he was very distinctive green Kawasaki, green leathers and a red beard, I never saw him again. All the aces I have heard speak on TV sound and have the demeanour of retired F1 and motorcycle GP champions, thoughtful, intelligent, affable but with a certain glint in their eyes.
Jackie Stewart and Winkle Brown are as alike two peas in a pod.
 
pbehn said:
All the aces I have heard speak on TV sound and have the demeanour of retired F1 and motorcycle GP champions, thoughtful, intelligent, affable but with a certain glint in their eyes.
Jackie Stewart and Winkle Brown are as alike two peas in a pod
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As Chuck Yeager and Dan Gurney, Bob Hoover and Mario Andretti. Smart, experienced, analytical, confident, and endowed with "grace under pressure".
Cheers,
Wes
 
The Graf Zeppelin was not due to be completed until after the Bismarck was sunk.

I wonder if the German attitude with the Graf Zeppelin would have been the same as the Tirpitz was after the loss of the Bismarck. That is, basically hidden out of harm's way.
 
Well the Tirpitz probably had more effect on the war at sea than the Bismark did, so long as it was in a Fjord and a possible danger then the RN and the RAF had to do something. I mentioned the Bismark as it was used in a scenario in a battle group with the GZ
 

SInce the LW took control of the aircraft, the GZ was usually the first victim in any material shortage which is why the carrier was never completed, the KM put it at the bottom of the priority list until its construction was finally stopped in May 1940. Without aircraft and time to work up, the KM should have taken up the IJN proposal and sold it to them.
 
If the Tirpitz was out of harms way she wouldn't have been a problem, the fact is she was very much in the way of Atlantic shipping but in a place very hard to hit. Until it was sunk it tied down a huge amount of the British wartime effort, I don't know if the GZ would have done the same.
 
wuzak said:
As to topic at hand:

Build a better Sea Hurricane
  1. Start with the Spitfire
  2. Make Fairey produce the navalised version rather than pursue their own designs, the design would be worked up with Supermarine
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Have a cosy chat with Grumman and get them to take over CCF (Canadian Car & Foundry). Instead of CCF building Hurricanes and Helldivers, get them to build Wildcats, Hellcats and Bearcats. Forget about the Sea Hurricanes and Seafires. Build decent planes instead.
 

The Martlet/Wildcat was considerably poorer in performance than a Hawker Sea Hurricane and not really much better than a Fulmar II under 10k ft. The FAA was having to counter FW190s with Seafires before the Hellcat even came into service, much less the F8F.
 
Maybe the conversion of British RAF types to a carrier role was to quote Winkle Brown "When needs must the devil drives". In another thread the discussion was as to the origin of the F8F "Beer Cat". Certainly the Grumman team was inspired to a new direction in checking out the FW190, but it was immediately apparent that other than trying to keep the general size and power, and especially the weight, a very different design would be necessary to optimize for a naval aircraft. Grumman produced a very fine aircraft, too late for the war. Having neglected Naval aircraft for the FAA England did not have the luxury of other than a "make do".
 
As a carrier aircraft the Wildcat did have one massive advantage over the Sea Hurricane, it's folding wings giving it a very small footprint. You could probably carry almost twice as many Wildcats compared to Sea Hurricanes. At sea with spares many maile away that was critical
 
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