Captured Mistel "Air Min 77"

Discussion in 'Aircraft Pictures' started by Ohm-men, May 18, 2017.

  1. Ohm-men

    Ohm-men Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Messages:
    302
    Likes Received:
    55
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Occupation:
    Graphic Industrie
    Location:
    Antwerp
    I'm certain that this subject has been raised before, though I'm seeking input from a modellers perspective on this subject.

    FW190_33_1.jpg

    STA51783.JPG

    STA51787.JPG

    Most likely the same mistel composite before being repainted.

    Mistel-23.jpg

    Since I'm mostly like to enter a local modelling contest at the end of the year, themed "Captured" aircraft.
    So Air Min 77 has my attention.

    What I have so far is that the Fw 190 has Werke Nr. 733759 and was a A8/R6 and before being placed on top of the Ju 88 A6/U werke Nr. 2492. had been on top of a Ju 88 G at Kastrup Denmark in 1945, which was scraped there.

    I asume both aircraft wore standard luftwaffe paint schemes and the Fw 190 A8 was most likely painted RLM 74/75 over 76. The Ju 88 was then RLM 70/71 over 65. The front of the fuselage, erea under de canopy of this Ju 88 has some "wellermuster" squigle, which looks very Luftwaffe alike. But was this something the Air Min added or a leftover from this Ju 88's previous camo in Luftwaffe use. (it's not visible in the last photograph) so any input on this would be greatly apreciated.

    I also assume the R.A.F. used their paints to paint the Lutwaffe markings out. Any idea which colours they might have used for this?
    And since my knowledge on RAF stuff is very limited, what kind of roundels did Air. Min used for the evalution of this equipment in the post war period?

    My plan is to use the old Revell/Dragon Ju 88 A4 as a base with a Tamiya or Eduard Fw 190 A8.
     
  2. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    51,522
    Likes Received:
    2,844
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
    #2 Wurger, May 18, 2017
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
    Found this... "Mistel S3A, Focke-Wulf Fw 190A, (Wk. Nr. 733682), designated RAF AM75 combined with Junkers Ju 88A-6, (Wk. Nr. 2492), designated AM77. The Focke-Wulf Fw 190A is preserved in the Imperial War Museum, London, England, while the Junkers Ju 88A-6 was scrapped at Farnborough."

    Mistel AirMin77_.jpg
     
  3. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2009
    Messages:
    8,046
    Likes Received:
    1,158
    Trophy Points:
    113
    #3 stona, May 18, 2017
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
    The aircraft were not scrapped in Denmark. The combination was flown to Schleswig on 30th July 1945. Subsequently the two aircraft were separated and flown to the RAE at Farnborough (the Ju 88 by a F/Lt Taylor on 21st September 1945) where the two were re-united for the German Aircraft Exhibition in October 1945. The Ju 88 was subsequently scrapped in the UK, its last known whereabouts were the Farnborough scrap area in December 1945. The Fw 190 probably met a similar fate. Another Fw 190, W.Nr. 733682, was removed from its Ju 88 and survives in the IWM Cosford.
    The first three photographs were taken at Farnborough, I don't think it is safe to say that the last photograph is of the same combination. The Ju 88 looks to be in night fighter camouflage and a G.

    Here is another picture, taken at Farnborough, of Air Min 77 which shows the 'wellenmuster' in a light colour (RLM 76?) sprayed over the standard RLM 70/71 camouflage. On the lighter underside the wellenmuster is seen in a dark colour, your guess is as good as mine, I'd go with RLM 70 or RLM 81.

    77_Farn.jpg

    The man in the photograph is Charles Cain, reporter for 'The Aeroplane' magazine, who wrote on the back.

    "Wet and windy - taken in front of the 'father and son' 'V' or revenge weapon Ju 88 A6 missile and the Focke-Wulf 190 A parent plane, at the Royal Aircraft Establishment, Farnborough on Monday, October 29, 1945. Look of abject misery and appearance of total exhaustion is the result of six hours concentrated inspection of new British and German aircraft plus the thought of trying to describe the scene in one page of The Aeroplane Spotter which goes to press less than 24 hours hence!"

    A very British comment, but no information on the aircraft :)

    The FW 190 was probably in a standard camouflage, probably 74/75 over 76.

    The British painted out the German markings with a grey colour, best guesses would be either Ocean Grey or Medium Sea Grey. The roundels applied were often not standard, indeed I have seen a photograph of them being applied by a German prisoner, presumably a painter, supervised by his British captors. You should be able to estimate something close from the images. I have no idea if roundels were applied to the upper wing surface. They were not applied to the fuselage of either aircraft, nor were fin flashes applied.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2009
    Messages:
    8,046
    Likes Received:
    1,158
    Trophy Points:
    113
    #4 stona, May 18, 2017
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
    Different Fw 190. The IWM has 733682 (at Cosford), also captured as part of a Mistel at Tirstrup. Air Min 77 had Fw 190 733759, but I wonder if it was an original combination.
    Cheers
    Steve
     
  5. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    51,522
    Likes Received:
    2,844
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
    #5 Wurger, May 18, 2017
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
    You seem to be right Steve. The Fw 190 is of a different serial. But almost all sources say the W.Nummer is the 733682 for the IMW one..

    Also found this... IMHO, it seems the Fw 190 for the mistel could have been replaced with another one captured. So, it wouldn't be the original combination
    Mistel 3A_.jpg
     
  6. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    51,522
    Likes Received:
    2,844
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
    And one shot more ..

    Mistel 3A_a.jpg
     
  7. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2009
    Messages:
    8,046
    Likes Received:
    1,158
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It would be very unusual to have an Fw 190 combined with a Ju 88 A, they were usually combined with a Ju 88 G. I seem to remember this had something to do with the engines, but honestly I'm not sure and would need to check. Ju 88 As were usually combined with Bf 109s.
    Cheers
    Steve
     
  8. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    51,522
    Likes Received:
    2,844
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
    Do you remember if these captured Mistels were transferred to the GB flying or shipped? If these were delivered by airfreight I'm curious whether all captured kites there were airworthy.
     
  9. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    49,655
    Likes Received:
    1,688
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Cheshire, UK
    The IWM FW 190A-8 is now the property of the RAF Museum, and on display at Cosford. It was removed from its 'hanging' display at IWM Lambeth and, after a short term on display at Duxford, was moved to Cosford in 2012, where it was restored in the Sir Michael Beetham Conservation Center, and then displayed in the 'War Machines' collection hangar in 2013.
    According to the RAFM (who do not list the Wk. Nr.), the aircraft was separated from the Ju-88 in Denmark, then flown to Farnborough, via Germany, and the Ju-88 did not make the journey, being scrapped in Denmark.
    The FW 190 is described as being from a 'Mistel' training unit, and used to train 'Mistel' pilots, which possibly accounts for the use of a JU88A.
    Somewhere (possibly in Eric 'Winkle' Brown's book, 'Wings of the Luftwaffe') I read that the FW was re-assembled with another Ju88 at Farnborough, as a representative 'Mistel' combination, for the enemy aircraft display post war, something I have seen in writing more than once.
    Pic below shows the FW shortly after being moved to the display hangar from the Conservation Center, and awaiting the fitting of the cowling and other panels, which were still being restored.


    FW 190 Cosford..jpg
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2009
    Messages:
    8,046
    Likes Received:
    1,158
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The Ju 88 that became part of Air Min 77 was certainly flown as a separate aircraft to Farnborough. I don't know how the Fw 190 came, and I'm still not exactly sure which one it was that was displayed as part of Air Min 77. If it was 733759, as seems to be generally accepted, then it was not the one subsequently displayed at the IWM/Cosford.
    The Fw 190 now at Cosford was flown to the UK via Schleswig. It was certainly part of a Mistel. The 'sockets' for the mounting struts used to be visible as did the cut outs in the skins to allow access for the various services and fuel supplies. The left side gun ammunition bay door was also shortened to this end. The top cowl gun location was occupied by an auxiliary oil tank for long range operation. The only possible armament could have been fitted in the outer gun bays. I have not seen the aircraft at Cosford, but I suspect that much of this detail will have been altered to represent a more standard aircraft...I hope not :)
    Cheers
    Steve
     
  11. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    49,655
    Likes Received:
    1,688
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Cheshire, UK
    From what I saw before the cowlings and gun access panels were re-fitted, I don't think it has been modified.
    The PDF below gives the history of the FW, along with the basic information regarding the 'Mistel' Ju88 etc, courtesy of The Trustees of the RAF Museum.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2009
    Messages:
    8,046
    Likes Received:
    1,158
    Trophy Points:
    113
    #12 stona, May 18, 2017
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
    That makes sense. 733682 is usually identified with Air Min 75.

    I've noticed the auxiliary oil tank in front of the windscreen in the photograph above, it's good to see that has been left as was.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  13. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    51,522
    Likes Received:
    2,844
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
    #13 Wurger, May 18, 2017
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
    Heaving the Fw 190A Wk. Nr. 733682 withouth her carrier it would be possible to take it and attach to the Ju-88A. Especially if the Ju-88A-6 came to the Farnborough as the separate aircraft. But what happened to the the Fw 190A Wk. Nr. 733759 ?

    Also I found the pic via te net. It is a little too blurry to work out the markings on the Ju-88A. However it seems to be the 2492. She is without the top kite attached. Just wonder where the shot was taken. Believing the caption at the Tirstrup airfield.

    Mistel Ju-88A-6.jpg
     
  14. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2009
    Messages:
    8,046
    Likes Received:
    1,158
    Trophy Points:
    113
    #14 stona, May 18, 2017
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
    I think the photograph was taken at Schleswig. Several accounts, including Forsyth's, agree that the combinations were separated there, not in Denmark.
    There are pictures of another combination (Ju 88 G-1 W.Nr. 714633 with an unidentified Fw 190 A-8) taken at Schleswig sometime in November/December 1945 in which the background looks very similar.
    Cheers
    Steve
     
  15. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    51,522
    Likes Received:
    2,844
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
    #15 Wurger, May 18, 2017
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
    Sounds reasonable. THX.

    And here the next image..

    RAF__Mistel__Focke-Wulf_Fw_190A-8__amp__Junkers_Ju_88A-6__RAF__2_.jpg
     
  16. Old Wizard

    Old Wizard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,975
    Likes Received:
    256
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Lethbridge AB
  17. Ohm-men

    Ohm-men Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Messages:
    302
    Likes Received:
    55
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Occupation:
    Graphic Industrie
    Location:
    Antwerp
    You guys are jst amazing... I just can't believe the info you are able to dig up!
    A very BIG thank you for this!:thumbleft: :salute: :thumbright:

    I'm getting a more clear picture now on how this Mistel has looked. I'm especially keen on the picture with the reporter of "Aeroplane Magazine". Now that would make a great diorama...;)

    I'm gonna study these new (to me) pictures you have all posted and see what I can come up with.
    I went through the "stash" last night and found an old Revell 1/48 scale boxing of their Ju 88 A4 kit (unstarted) and a Dragon Fw 190 G with a Verlinden detail/engine set. So I "think" I got it covered. And my very good friend Bart (of our local IPMS chapter) gave me a full Dragon Mistel sprue containing all the suports and other necesary parts to build a mistel.

    I really never knew that a Ju 88 A/Fw 190 A Mistel composite existed. Nice to learn a few new things :)

    But I must (and will) finish the Dorniers first.

    Again thanks a lot for all the above posted info on "Air. Min. 77"
     
  18. Gnomey

    Gnomey World Travelling Doctor
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    43,450
    Likes Received:
    622
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Doctor
    Location:
    Portsmouth / Royal Deeside, UK
    Home Page:
  19. Michael BJ

    Michael BJ New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Occupation:
    Aircraft engineer
    Location:
    Rødovre, Denmark
    As far as I know, the Ju88A was not compatible with the Fw190, since they used different types of fuel, although I am not completely sure if this is correct.

    I would believe that the Jumo engines of the JU88A would only be used together with th DB engine of a Bf109. The BMW engine of the Fw190 could possible better use the same fuel as the BMW engines of the Ju88G (if I am correct?)
     
  20. Wayne Little

    Wayne Little Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    52,960
    Likes Received:
    945
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Adelaide Sth. Aust.
    great shots and info..
     
Loading...

Share This Page