The Twotter is a good example of this, but before making claims that Cessna might not know what they are doing with this aircraft, it might be worth doing some research. I work on aircraft for a living, I'm well aware of engineering issues with aircraft design, but it's presumptuous to think Cessna is making a mistake with this aircraft before it has entered the market yet. There is a market for this class of aircraft, definitely, so isn't it worth waiting and seeing before we jump to conclusions and rubbish it without knowing anything about it?
Cessna SkyCourier Debuts At Oshkosh
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The Twotter is a good example of this, but before making claims that Cessna might not know what they are doing with this aircraft, it might be worth doing some research. I work on aircraft for a living, I'm well aware of engineering issues with aircraft design, but it's presumptuous to think Cessna is making a mistake with this aircraft before it has entered the market yet. There is a market for this class of aircraft, definitely, so isn't it worth waiting and seeing before we jump to conclusions and rubbish it without knowing anything about it?
And given that it was designed with input from the main customer, I think it'll be a success.
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MIflyer
Captain
Oh, I think that Cessna knows what it is doing. My observation is that they did not submit to the mania that everything has to have the latest features in every respect, be made out of composites, and use automated fly-by-wire control systems that the pilot mainly just monitors.
During Vietnam the US Army was looking for an COIN aircraft that would be suitable for truck convoy escort. The USAF told them their jet fighters would be overhead in mere minutes but the Army wanted something already overhead. They found the perfect airplane for the job. It was inexpensive, very rugged, could handle short rough strips, a long loiter time, was easy to repair, and was already in production. They said to the manufacturer, "That's what we want!" The company replied how many are you going to buy? The Army said, "None! It's perfect but we'd be laughed out of the Pentagon." The perfect airplane was the Grumman Ag-Cat, a radial engined biplane.
They had a ceremony phasing out the last piston powered airplanes in the USAF, the O-2, in the 80's. Twenty years later the USAF's most imporatnt new weapon was a piston powered airplane that cruised at 90 kts, the General Atomics Predator.
During Vietnam the US Army was looking for an COIN aircraft that would be suitable for truck convoy escort. The USAF told them their jet fighters would be overhead in mere minutes but the Army wanted something already overhead. They found the perfect airplane for the job. It was inexpensive, very rugged, could handle short rough strips, a long loiter time, was easy to repair, and was already in production. They said to the manufacturer, "That's what we want!" The company replied how many are you going to buy? The Army said, "None! It's perfect but we'd be laughed out of the Pentagon." The perfect airplane was the Grumman Ag-Cat, a radial engined biplane.
They had a ceremony phasing out the last piston powered airplanes in the USAF, the O-2, in the 80's. Twenty years later the USAF's most imporatnt new weapon was a piston powered airplane that cruised at 90 kts, the General Atomics Predator.
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MiTasol
Major
But it will not be grossly underpowered like the GonadI think it looks more like the GAF Nomad (except for the fixed gear)
GAF Nomad - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
but, form follows function
MiTasol
Major
especially lack of APU for hot countries. The manufacturers lack of support is another minus.
No, hopefully not.
dick56
Airman
The FAA won't even allow the LET-410 in the USA because of the death toll it has taken over the years. I don't know it weak spot(s) but a lot of them crashed on takeoff.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
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MiTasol
Major
gumbyk said:
No, hopefully not.
Gumbyk was commenting on the Nomad, also unofficially known as the Gonad as it really was a balls up. Fantastic potential but under-powered, small payload (because under-powered) yet a lot of good concepts - flat floor, constant rectangular section fuselage ideal for freight ops, big doors etc, no residual fuel (unuseable fuel is a waste of fuel and payload), ailerons droop to become flaps as the flaps extend and roll control transferred to spoilers, the main and nose wheels interchangeable (though most operators left the brake disc off), etc etc. Some things could have been executed better but at least the initial thought was there.
It also had its preventable problems like the original engine intakes that iced up badly (one aircraft in the PNG highlands lost both engines on take-off at around 20C and high humidity because the inlet shape created a low temperature low airflow region around the intake - there were lots of photos of the iced up intakes floating around for months after that), the battery and a bunch of critical circuit breakers in the front of the left pod that was far too flexible (which resulted in more than one losing critical instruments on takeoff from rough strips when the vibration popped the CBs), etc etc.
What the Gonad needed most was for each of the 250B17 powerplants to be replaced with the complete power unit off the Mitsubishi Mu2 - two men can remove it in 20 minutes and it is totally interchangeable side for side. Three bolts, a hand full of control links and fluid lines, start/gen wiring and two identical cannon plugs. Magic.
Incidentally, like the Let, the Mu2 has a bad reputation yet in the 80s/90s it had a far lower accident rate than the KingAir in accidents per units registered, accidents per cycle and accidents per flying hour.
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The Nomad had lots of potential, and could have been developed a lot further. But, I'm not sure if destroying lift for roll control on an aircraft designed for STOL-type work was the best idea. There were also duty time limitations on the undercarriage retract mechanism. It would overheat and bind if you did repeated cycles of under 10 minutes, such as during training.
Nothing there wasn't able to be overcome though. I think what ultimately killed it was the fact that GAF stands for GOVERNMENT Aircraft Factory...
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,306
- Jun 25, 2013
The Partenavia Victor was originally a fixed-gear twin. One author (Stinton?) mentioned that it's productivity (ton-miles/hr) of the R/G version was the same as the F/G version -- the weight of the retractable, vs fixed, gear caused enough loss in payload to wipe out the advantage in speed, as take-off weight couldn't be increased.
Also, fixed gear does remove a pilot-related failure mode: it's tough to forget to extend the gear.
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Although I have heard of somebody who managed to retract the gear on a Cessna 150 on landing. Something about a berm...
Also, fixed gear does remove a pilot-related failure mode: it's tough to forget to extend the gear.
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Although I have heard of somebody who managed to retract the gear on a Cessna 150 on landing. Something about a berm...
It's not uncommon - Cessna single retractables suffered the same way. And why you see fewer retractable singles now.
The ATR doesn't need an APU, it has a prop brake, so can run the No.2 engine without the prop spinning and operate services using that. Manufacturer's support is an issue with ATR, the French are hard work! But it can be done as ATRs use a lot of existing components utilised in other types. It depends on the logistical supply chain at the location that makes life the most difficult.
MiTasol
Major
but when operating from airports with 30C and above temperatures when it is not possible to park with the nose into wind you can quickly end up with high TOT and a forced shutdown and the resultant hassles. Other option which the pax really do not like is to clear all people from the area and unlock the prop brake then start and taxi to a place where the engine can cool down. The pax think you are absconding with their luggage etc and can get very agro. Not a problem on airports where you can always park facing into wind.
Yup, but thankfully turnarounds on ATRs aren't that long and there shouldn't be too much time spent sitting on the ground before Hotel is switched on. The type is used in some pretty warm countries. The ATR has other issues aside from that which make it a bit problematic anyway. It wouldn't be my first choice of regional airliner.
MiTasol
Major
Agro Papua New Guineans at airports that are hot and high are not a desirable situation. I agree that ATR would not be my first choice either and after dealing with ATR on manual deficiencies means that I would never recommend any ATR product to any operator (refusal to supply the FCOM sups without an obscene fee for the mods fitted and certified at the factory as complete including FCOM sups until I sent them a draft of the email I was going to send to DGAC, EASA and FAA. At that point they suddenly became very helpful providing both PDF by email and hard copy by courier).
Don't have to worry too much about that, Air Niugini operate Dash 8s.
Yup, ATR manuals are a pain. Glad I'm not in that world anymore. At A check level the ATR is a piece of cake, heavy maintenance wise it is a pig.
MiTasol
Major
Yes PX do operate Dash 8's but AirLink (ND) had an ATR-42 operating from Madang for a couple of years.
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cammerjeff
Tech Sergeant
I am lad to hear my experiance with early ATR-42 & 72's was not uncommon. The French Company was very difficult to deal with in 1985-86, and sounds like they have the same great Customer Service. We had to call them very early in the morning our time (Detroit) to even get them to answer a phone call on an urgent matter that had grounded 3 or the 5 examples we had in the fleet at the time.
But eventually they were better A/C to operate than the 15-20 year old YS-11's they replaced.
But eventually they were better A/C to operate than the 15-20 year old YS-11's they replaced.
The ATR is perfect - having the baggage hold between the cockpit and cabin is perfect for that situation.
And I wouldn't mess with Air Niugini's Cabin crew. I've watched them move a Chinese husband and wife from an exit row. I was sitting a row behind, and I was feeling like I should have moved as well...
