Clash of the Titans

[GrauGeist]

While reading up on the Bv222 (I've always liked the large flying boats) I saw a mention about a battle between a Bv222 and a PB4Y and tried to imagine the epic slugfest between these two monsters.

We always discuss the battles between fighters and while doing so, they bring to mind images of the aerobatics that these machines went through to get their enemy into the crosshairs...but for two leviathans to square off must have been an incredible sight!

This battle (really can't call it a dogfight) happened on 23 October, 1943 over the Bay of Biscay between a Bv222 V4 of Aufklärungsstaffel (See) 222 and a PB4Y-1 (BU #63917) of VB-105.

I haven't been able to dig up more details other than the fact that the crew of the PB4Y were lost (10 MIA)

It would be interesting to see if there is more documented battles between giants that occurred during the war (all theaters)

Blohm Voss Bv222

 

[GrauGeist]

Ok...here's another interesting battle involving a Flying boat. While it's not between two "heavies" it did involve large aircraft.

(Taken from Wiki): This reputation (of being a Fliegendes Stachelschwein - "Flying Porcupine") was enhanced by an air battle between eight Junkers Ju 88C long range heavy fighters and a single Sunderland Mark III of No. 461 Squadron RAAF on 2 June 1943. There were 11 crewmen on board the Sunderland; nine Australians and two British. The aircraft was on an anti-submarine patrol and also searching for remains of BOAC Flight 777, an airliner that had left Lisbon the day before and had subsequently been shot down over the Bay of Biscay, killing 17, among them, the actor Leslie Howard. In the late afternoon, one of the crew spotted the eight Ju 88s. Bombs and depth charges were dumped and the engines brought to maximum power. Two Ju 88s made passes at the flying boat, one from each side, scoring hits and disabling one engine while the Sunderland went through wild "corkscrew" evasive manoeuvres. On the third pass, the dorsal turret gunner shot one down. Another Ju 88 disabled the tail turret, but the next one that made a pass was hit by both the dorsal and nose turrets and shot down. Another destroyed the Sunderland's radio gear, wounding most of the crew to varying degrees and mortally wounding one of the side gunners. A Ju 88 tried to attack from the rear, but the tail turret gunner had regained some control over the turret and shot it down. The surviving Ju 88s continued to attack, but the nose gunner damaged one of these, setting its engines on fire. Two more of the attackers were also hit and the final pair disengaged and departed, the only two to make it back to base[citation needed]. The Sunderland had been heavily damaged. The crew threw everything they could overboard and nursed the aircraft back to the Cornish coast, where pilot Colin Walker managed to land and beach it at Praa Sands. The crew waded ashore, carrying their dead comrade, while the surf broke the Sunderland up. Walker received the Distinguished Service Order and several of the other crew members also received medals. With the exception of Walker, the crew returned to Sunderlands - they disappeared without trace over the Bay of Biscay two months later after reporting that they were under attack by six Ju 88s.

Short Sunderland:

 

[GrauGeist]

Ran across a great battle, this time in the pacific, between a Japanese H6K "Mavis" and a U.S. B-17 (PB-1) in November 1942.

The following is an account of that duel from the H6K's pilot, Lt. Hitsuji, 851 NAG, taken from his book "The Last Flying Boat" (ISBN4-257-17286-X):

"Enemy plane! Close! Starboard and to the rear!" the tail gunner reported.

"All men on air to air battle station!" I yelled as I put the plane in a full speed dive to sealevel.

It was 0700 November 21, 1942, 150 nautical miles south of Guadalcanal. We were in midst of a very bloody battle, losing flying boats almost every day to unidentified enemy activities. Our boats would have just enough time to radio a consecutive "hi" signal (consecutive signaling of the Japanese Morse code signal for the character "hi", the initial for "hikoki" or airplane) before the shoot-out followed by silence. Very few survived air combat. If a boat is able to make detailed reports about the enemy, that boat was sure to make it back.

Our commanding officer was in distress about the mounting losses, and just a few days ago, I had assured him that this will not go on for long. So far 16 of our boats were lost. I was not about to be number 17. It wasn't a patrol plane's duty to engage in air battles, but now I had no choice.

I figured that the fight must be decided quickly. The B-17 positioned itself above and to the starboard rear of our plane and followed us with ease. It must be radioing it's base about our position. One of them was bad enough. If there were two or even fighter planes we did not have a chance. I made a tight turn to the port and headed towards the enemy. The only chance we had was the relatively small turning radius of our slow plane compared to that of the fast B-17.

The enemy was obviously surprised at our sudden turn. As we passed each other, our tail cannon fire hit the B-17 and its port inside engine started smoking. The enemy fled, trailing a long streamer of black smoke. The enemy was surprisingly inpersistent. We continued our search mission, but I had a feeling that it wasn't over yet.

"Eat your breakfast now before they come back" I ordered and went to the commander's seat to open my lunchbox. Pretty soon the co-pilot silently pointed his finger forward and to the port. I took a hard look, and there he was. Another big-tailed B-17 heading straight toward us. The one we damaged must have called for help. We were all ready to fight, and I stood up from my seat. I sealed the tank chamber and pulled the fire extinguisher lever. This fills the tank chamber with CO2. All gunners manned their stations. I could see the front gunner grinning in his turret.

"Okay we're ready" someone said.

At altitude 30 meters and speed 150 knots, we headed towards squally skied in the direction of our base. The enemy didn't start his attack immediately. It flew alongside us and passed us. I figured that he was avoiding our tail cannon. It would probably be making a frontal attack. The shoot-out was about to begin.

"Here it comes!" someone shouted, and at the same time, the enemy's front guns and all four of our starboard machine-guns started firing. As we passed each other, I could see the enemy's tail gun fire, but tracers were way behind us. No hits on either side. We didn't change our course and headed toward the squall.

The faster enemy caught up quickly and crisscrossed our path, attacking as it passed us.

We were at very low altitude, and the sea behind us whitened with machine-gun fire. As the shooting went on, this started moving closer and closer. I could not hear anything other than the roar of the machine-guns and the engine noise. I couldn't keep my eyes off the enemy for a moment. The enemy made its fourth pass, and as it crossed our path, a 50 caliber shell jumped into the cockpit.

I heard someone yell "Damn!" and smelled smoke at the same time. I turned around and two men were down on the floor. Our main radio man PO2 Watanabe's left arm was hanging limp from his shoulder, and blood was shooting up to the ceiling. Flight engineer Leading Mechanic Nakano was down on the floor, holding his left arm, and shouting "Gasoline, gasoline!".

He was yelling to the radioman because the spark from the telegram key could set the vaporized gasoline on fire. But the injured radio man continued to send the message that we were combating an enemy bomber. The enemy started making yet another pass.

I took off my muffler and threw it to Lt. (jg) Ide who was shooting away, and yelled "Stop his bleeding!" I could see from the tank chamber window that gas was gushing out of a hit tank. It was a miracle that it wasn't on fire. The floor was soon covered with gas. I injected additional CO2 gas, and I could see the white gas filling the tank chamber. The injured mechanic was still yelling "Gasoline!". I could only yell back "It's okay! You worry about yourself!"

We were able to stop the radioman's bleeding, but the enemy still kept attacking. Amid the exchange of machine gun roar, I could hear bullets tearing into our plane. The plane shook under the impact. All four engines were driving at full power.

On their sixth pass, the moment I saw their tailgun fire, there was an enormous banging noise up front gunner PO1 Takahashi pointed to the floor beneath the pilot's seat and I noted a big hole about 30cm, on the keel of our bow. I could see waves from the hole.

By this time, I was sure that this enemy has shot down more than one flying boat. "It wasn't fighters. It was this guy. Another patrol plane!. I'm going to get him. He is not going to have anymore kill marks!" As I came to this realization, there was a new determination in my mind. If we can't donw him with our guns, we will ram him. I drew and loaded my pistol.

"If worse comes to worst we'll ram him, okay?" I patted the main pilot Ensign Kobayashi's sholder with my pistol. He nodded lightly. "Okay, we're ready then". My mind was set. I was going to shoot myself at the moment of the ramming so I would die before the crew.

I noted that the side panel of the commander's seat was burning hot. I was shocked to find the bullet that hit the crew crewmen perched in the panel. Had I not been standing, this bullet would have hit my back! (This bullet is still in my possession).

I noticed that the enemy's fire was getting considerably weaker. Either some of their gunners were knocked out, or they were out of ammo. I was getting the feeling that we may be able to make it when the co-pilot suddenly put the plane in a dive. The sea was right in front of us.

"Not yet!" I yelled, thinking that he was about to ram the B-17, but soon realized that our co-pilot PO1 Kira evaded a collision with the enemy who came in from the side. The enemy passed about 30meters behind us. The tail gunner poured an entire drum of 20mm cannon shells into the B-17.

The shells all hit the enemy's fuselage. The enemy passed us from the right, then banked left and started closing into our plane. I could see the enemy pilot's face. I couldn't help but fire my pistol at the enemy.

Maybe the enemy was trying to ram us too. I noticed all his guns were pointing random directions. He must have been out of ammo. He flew alongside us banking and yawing for a while, but eventually disappeared into the rain towards Guadalcanal, trailing gasoline. "We won!" we said to each other, but we could no longer fight.

"Lt. Hitsuji's H6K made it back to Shortland, but taxing was something of a small adventure. After splashdown, as soon as the bow came down, water started gushing in from the hole in the bow. Since they did not have material to close the big hole in the bow, they stuffed their life jackets into the hole. This obviously wasn't holding up, and six men piled up on the life jacket-stuffed hole to stop the water. By the time they were beached, these men had their head barely above water. Everyone was covered with water, oil, and blood.

Their plane #36 (could have been O-36 or 851-36 or 51-36) had endured ninety-three 50 caliber bullets.

Lt. Hitsuji survived the war to become the last Japanese pilot to fly the H8K2 when he flew the big boat to Yokohama and where it was handed over to the US occupational forces. He was escorted by a PBY, but had to fly in zigzag pattern to keep from overtaking the PBY."

Kawanishi H6K:

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Also a favorite topic of mine... harks back to the era of frigate vs frigate battles but in 3-D. These are photos taken during an engagement between a PB4Y-1 Liberator and an H8K Emily. This time the Emily lost the battle. photos on line from the Naval aviation museum.

From:

Display

 

[ShVAK]

There's a reason why the Germans referred to the Sunderland as a "flying porcupine." Probably my fave flying boat of WWII, though the PBY, Emily and Wiking are all up there too.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Very interesting topic. I have always loved the flying boats. Small and Large. Very interesting stuff. I will be honest, I have read very little about "combat' between the large flying boats, so I will be reading this thread with great interest.

 

[davebender]

Rare between large seaplanes during WWII. However it was an everyday occurance between small seaplanes during WWI. Some WWI seaplanes such as the FF.33L were designed specifically for aerial combat.

Friedrichshafen Aircraft of World War One
Friedrichshafen Aircraft of World War One

When the company failed in 1923, their production facilities were taken over by Dornier Flugzeugwerke.

Dornier then became the premier German seaplane manufacturer.

Personally I think it would be nice if Dornier had retained the famous Friedrichshafen name for their seaplane division. "Friedrichshafen" was pretty much synomyous with state of the art seaplanes during WWI.

 

[nuuumannn]

Here are a few more involving the Sundy, taken from Sunderland Squadrons of WW2 by Jon Lake:

"...there were a few occasions when the Sunderland turned the tables on its attackers. On 3 April 1940, Flt Lt Frank Phillips of no.204 Sqn, flying N9046 did just that. The aircraft, on routine convoy escort was first attacked by two Ju 88s, which were driven off and then the Sunderland repelled four more as they tried to dive bomb the convoy. The flying boat was then attacked by a gaggle of sixmore Ju 88s, which engaged the Sunderland from astern as Phillips manoeuvred at low level. One was shot down by Cpl Bill Lillie in the rear turret, who also put the port engine of the second attacker out of action, forcing the Junkers pilot to break off his attack and turn for home, escorted by the four survivors. But even these half hearted attackes holed every one of the Sunderland's takls, destroyed its trimming gear and one bomb rack and injured some of the crew, although it did limp back to Invergordon, winning a DFC for Phillips and a DFM for Lillie."

"On 13 July 1940, 10 Sqn RAAF's Flt Lt 'Hoot' Gibson (flying N9050/D) was attacked by a Bf 110, which his gunners drove off, trailing smoke after it had holed the Sunderland's tanks. Two days later the same unit's Flt Lt Hugh Birch encountered five He 111s attacking the SS City of Limerick south of Bishop's Rock off the Scilly Isles. Birch engaged the enemy aircraft, setting one alight and driving off the others. Finally more than a year later on 14 August 1941, Flt Lt Vic Hodgkinson again of 10 Sqn RAAF drove off an Fw 200, which left the fight trailing dense smoke and shedding large chunks of debris - an almost certain kill for the lumbering Sunderland."

 

[nuuumannn]

"Friedrichshafen" was pretty much synomyous with state of the art seaplanes during WWI.

...and this was without a doubt their most famous one

Friedrichshafen FF 33E Nr 841 Wolfchen carried by the commerce raider Wolf on its world cruise in 1917/18.

Sorry about the thread diversion... On with the Buxom Boats battiling it out...

 

[vikingBerserker]

According to The Relucatant Radiers - by Alan Carey (about USN's VPB-109 Squadron), On May 7th, 1944 Lt John D Keelings' crew flying in a PB4Y had a running gun battle with a H6K Mavis and shot it down. Pics from pages 74 75 and taken by one of the waist gunners.

 

[nuuumannn]

Amazing photos Viking...

 

[GrauGeist]

Here's a good example of a heavyweight match...

A Sunderland versus a Fw200 over the Atlantic!

On 5 June, 1942, W3986/U of 10 Sqdn RAAF damaged U-71 with depth-charges as it dove forcing the submarine to the surface, where it strafed it. The U-boat fired back and damaged the Sunderland before limping back to base for repairs. Shortly after attacking U-71, the Sunderland came under attack by a Fw200 which sat just outside of the flying boat's MG range, hitting it with cannon fire.

Flt. Lt. Wood and his crew kept thier nerve, however, and fired back when the Fw200 finally closed in at the end of the 75-minute running gun battle, finally driving the Condor off with one German crew member dead and another wounded.

(info taken from the book titled: "Sunderland Squadrons of WW2" - pg 32/Jon Lake - ISBN: 1841760242)

 

[GrauGeist]

Great stories photos, guys!

Gotta love the stories from WWI where the monster bombers as well as seaplanes used to mix it up with each other! That had to be extremely harrowing, since parachutes were either non-existant or scarce at the time.

I did see a mention of a Fw200 versus Fortress account that happened over the North Atlantic, but it was more of a brief skirmish rather than an open brawl. It was in the momoirs of WOP/AG H.F. Tuckwood RCAF:

On one of our flights over the Atlantic, we passed right over a German four engine plane called a Focke-Wolfe Condor on its way out to attack our convoys. We reversed our direction to attack from the rear. I was in the upper turret at the time. In the following battle he managed t escape into cloud with one engine smoking. One of his shells passed through our aircraft, missing a depth charge by 2 inches and passing through the radio and seat where a wireless operator had been sitting minutes before. We had to return to base.

 

[Timppa]

Ok...here's another interesting battle involving a Flying boat. While it's not between two "heavies" it did involve large aircraft.

(Taken from Wiki): This reputation (of being a Fliegendes Stachelschwein - "Flying Porcupine") was enhanced by an air battle between eight Junkers Ju 88C long range heavy fighters and a single Sunderland Mark III of No. 461 Squadron RAAF on 2 June 1943...

Of German losses:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/stories/sunderland-vs-eight-ju-88s-7987-2.html#post483144

 

[Njaco]

We had a thread here a few years ago (by Cosimo I believe) that documented battles between large a/c. While not flying boats, there was a battle between a B-17 and an He 177 once. I will try to find the thread.

Here it is.....

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/stories/sunderland-vs-eight-ju-88s-7987.html

 

[GrauGeist]

Comiso used to come up with all sorts of cool stuff...miss seeing him around!

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Rare between large seaplanes during WWII. However it was an everyday occurance between small seaplanes during WWI. Some WWI seaplanes such as the FF.33L were designed specifically for aerial combat.

"Friedrichshafen" was pretty much synomyous with state of the art seaplanes during WWI.

My money has always been on Curtiss for that honor. Their prototype America was a giant for its time (1914) with unprecedented legs at the start of WWI and the beginning of a line that went through the NC series into the 20's. but I'd be willing to hear your case. On the WWI thread of the forum. The reconstructed America flew out over Keuka lake in 2009 out of Hammondsport NY


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2sy5d4W-jI

...and this was without a doubt their most famous one

Friedrichshafen FF 33E Nr 841 Wolfchen carried by the commerce raider Wolf on its world cruise in 1917/18.

Got the book from my nephew for XMAS two years ago, very interesting read: The Wolf by Guilliatt and Hohnen. Especially interesting about the many relationships that developed between the crew and the prisoners.

 

[nuuumannn]

Especially interesting about the many relationships that developed between the crew and the prisoners.

Yes indeed, fascinating story; they really should make a movie about it, directed by Peter Jackson to ensure accuracy (he does love a good aeroplane appearance in his films)! Interesting that despite the nefarious activities of the ship, most of the prisoners were intrigued by the operation of the seaplane and I read that when it crashed and required repair in the South Pacific, they were quite glad to see it up and running once the crew fixed it. Stockholm syndrome long before Stockholm...

Thread drift....

 

[GrauGeist]

Time to dust off this thread with another duel of the heavies.

On 25 October '42, B-17E "Miss Fit" (41-2433) came to the rescue of a PBY-5A that was under attack by an IJN H6K4. The running battle lasted 44 minutes and saw the Mavis strike the ocean and burn, with all crew lost.
The B-17's crew suffered only two wounded: the navigator and the bombarded.

 

[BlackSheep]

Ran across a great battle, this time in the pacific, between a Japanese H6K "Mavis" and a U.S. B-17 (PB-1) in November 1942.

The following is an account of that duel from the H6K's pilot, Lt. Hitsuji, 851 NAG, taken from his book "The Last Flying Boat" (ISBN4-257-17286-X):


"Lt. Hitsuji's H6K made it back to Shortland, but taxing was something of a small adventure. After splashdown, as soon as the bow came down, water started gushing in from the hole in the bow. Since they did not have material to close the big hole in the bow, they stuffed their life jackets into the hole. This obviously wasn't holding up, and six men piled up on the life jacket-stuffed hole to stop the water. By the time they were beached, these men had their head barely above water. Everyone was covered with water, oil, and blood.

Their plane #36 (could have been O-36 or 851-36 or 51-36) had endured ninety-three 50 caliber bullets.

Lt. Hitsuji survived the war to become the last Japanese pilot to fly the H8K2 when he flew the big boat to Yokohama and where it was handed over to the US occupational forces. He was escorted by a PBY, but had to fly in zigzag pattern to keep from overtaking the PBY."

Kawanishi H6K:
View attachment 211434

Just found this story myself and love it! Looking for the book preferably a format that can be converted to English.