Cold war gone hot in Europe

[Cyrano]

 

[102first_hussars]

Well basically

the Russians had and still do have like 20 000 tanks, there would have been no stopping them, only Tactical nuclear weapons, and if that had of happened it would have escalated to ICBMs, and pretty much the end of the world

 

[timshatz]

I have heard several times that they were on the verge in the Mid 80s of heading West. However, I am not sure how accurate the assertion is. It was given as one of the reason's for Reagan's Buildup and the Pershing 2s in Europe. My understanding is they saw the US as weak in the late 70s (which we were), realized they were in an economic pickle and thought they could pull it off.

However, finding justifyable evidence of it is very tough. How do you prove something that never happened (outside of alien abductions and conspiricies)?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I can tell you from living with the US military community in Germany in the 80s on up, you are quite correct.

The NATO forces in Germany would never have had a chance to defeat the Russians if they invaded. That was also the not the purpose of the forces in Germany though.

The US and other NATO forces were just a stop gap to hold the Russians and slow them down long eneogh for the rest of the US military and her allies England and everyone else to get there forces onto the continent in eneogh numbers to actually consider offensive operations.

The forces in Europe at the time all had a "footprint" of where they were to go in the case of attack. My fathers unit in the 80s "footprint" was the Fulda Gap for instance.

It was actually a pretty tense time. We all had to carry cards that had a pic of Soviet Liscence plates and if we saw them, we were to immediatly notify the nearest military unit.

 

[timshatz]

I remember the operational tests they used to run every summer. I think they were called "Operation Forager", to see if we could stop the Soviets and get the equipment over there.

We never did. Either of the goals. Never worked. Air bridge seemed to work ok, shipping never got it together in time. But even with the air bridge, the Soviets made it to the Rhine. Every time.

Usually ended up going nuclear. Tactical at first then....

 

[Matt308]

"Would you like to play a game?"

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I remember the operational tests they used to run every summer. I think they were called "Operation Forager", to see if we could stop the Soviets and get the equipment over there.

We never did. Either of the goals. Never worked. Air bridge seemed to work ok, shipping never got it together in time. But even with the air bridge, the Soviets made it to the Rhine. Every time.

Usually ended up going nuclear. Tactical at first then....

Are you talking about Reforger? That was the Germany wide maneuvers that we would perform. To bad we cant do it anymore because the whole country was a maneuver field. You would see Huey helicopters landing in the back of Guesthouses and M1 tanks driving though little German towns. It was really cool. The only that sucked was that a Hummer with a guy and checkbook was following each unit to pay out all the damages.

 

[Cyrano]

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

All of them were a show of force actually if you think about it. A show of force for Europe to show them that NATO had a plan and at the same time to show the Russians that we were not playing around.

Ofcourse in all of this you get the best training for combat because there was not constraints and no "box".

 

[timshatz]

Are you talking about Reforger? That was the Germany wide maneuvers that we would perform. To bad we cant do it anymore because the whole country was a maneuver field. You would see Huey helicopters landing in the back of Guesthouses and M1 tanks driving though little German towns. It was really cool. The only that sucked was that a Hummer with a guy and checkbook was following each unit to pay out all the damages.

Yeah, that was it. Reforger. Everybody geared up for WW3. I don't know about Germany (I suspect it was pretty clear over there what was going on and what it meant) but back here, it was a fiasco. At least in the Reserve units. Nobody had it together. Would've taken us a month just to figure out where everybody was. While some units had it together (mostly Air Wings and Reserve ships) and could head out in a week or so, most of the units just weren't ready for the Big One.

 

[timshatz]

Are you talking about Reforger?

Memory like a sieve.

 

[pbfoot]

i worked a 3 reforgers up in Goosebay the first or last refuelling site on this side of the pond . We'd launch a 141 every 20 minutes . The 141 would land crew change refuel and go . We;d also get flights of up to 20-30 Harriers , F4s 16's and 15's at a time it was really fun . If it was in the US inventory it passed through. The best was the Harriers arrived during the airshow.In the pic of the A3's you can see 3 141's and a whack of 130's in the back it was a humoungus ramp . Thats part of the USAF ramp the GAF and RAF also had some as well as CAF

 

[Glider]

The only that sucked was that a Hummer with a guy and checkbook was following each unit to pay out all the damages.

I heard of a British Army Sargent who was charged as he took money from a Farmer to knock down an old barn with his tank, the idea being the farmer would claim for a new one.

General view was that it was, shall we say, not an unknown practice and he was plain stupid for getting caught.

 

[Matt308]

I'm very close with an old A3 driver. He later flew A-6s. He had good things to say about the A3. Great pics.

 

[Haztoys]

It was actually a pretty tense time. We all had to carry cards that had a pic of Soviet Liscence plates and if we saw them, we were to immediatly notify the nearest military unit.

You said I could ask dumb questions.. ... You opened the flood gates ...LOL

More on the liscence plates ... Were they going to come in cars.??? Or the tanks have liscence plates ... (Just being a wish but j/k)

But I would like more info on the plates..?? Plate on what..?

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

I was wondering the same thing.

 

[timshatz]

I think as part of the WW2 ending negotiations, the Soviets and Western Allies were allowed to drive around each other's territory. Not sure about the details but I remember reading that US troops would drive a jeep around East Berlin every so often as part of the agreement.

Somebody else on the board doubtless knows more about it. Maybe some of the guys who live in Germany.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I heard of a British Army Sargent who was charged as he took money from a Farmer to knock down an old barn with his tank, the idea being the farmer would claim for a new one.

General view was that it was, shall we say, not an unknown practice and he was plain stupid for getting caught.

It would not surprise me. The military back then was different and quite corrupt at times.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You said I could ask dumb questions.. ... You opened the flood gates ...LOL

More on the liscence plates ... Were they going to come in cars.??? Or the tanks have liscence plates ... (Just being a wish but j/k)

But I would like more info on the plates..?? Plate on what..?

Military vehicals have liscense plates atleast in most countries. And if they do not have liscense plates then they have painted on ones for identification within there own units.

The cards had examples of what all these would like.

 

[parsifal]

Attached is a review of the best commercial simulation of a hypothetical conflict on the central front of Europe. It was a controversial game at the time and attracted some voracious criticisms. still, the most complete and detailed attempt at a simulation for this scenario that I know.

ive played it several times. Russians are unstoppable at first, but if time passes their supply chain fails and by d+60, if the allies have survived without a one sided defeat, they can begin to inch back territory. Fighting in the Ruhr districts as the Russians was diabolical I recall and those airborne Apaches, Cobras and A-10s were just terrifying. f-111s did most of the deep penetration stuff, and the three wings of F-15s almost single handedly would regain air superiority within days. WP air forces were numerically strong at the start, but would inevitably take heavy losses to the NATO forces fighting them.

anyway, worth a look if you are interested

Map and Counters: SPI, THE NEXT WAR (1978)