Compare some late -post WW II fighter

[mig-31bm]

Where does the Sea Fury fit in to this section, its more than a match for anything else mentioned including the Bearcat.

here is some data i can find

F8F-2
Maximum speed: 455 mph (405 kn, 730 km/h)
Service ceiling: 40,800 ft (12,436 m)
Rate of climb: 4,465 ft/min (23.2 m/s)
Power/mass: 0.22 hp/lb (360 W/kg)

P/F-51H
Maximum speed : 487 mph (784 km/h) at 25,000 ft (7,620 m)
Service ceiling : 41,700 ft (12,710 m. basic) / 44,300 ft (13,500 m. interceptor)
Rate of climb : 5,210 ft/min (26.5 m/s) at 4,400 ft (570 m)
Power/mass 0.20 hp/lb (0.33 kW/kg)
Wing loading 39.9 lb/ft� (194.7 kg/m�)

Sea fury
Maximum speed: 460 mph (400 knots, 740 km/h) at 18,000 ft (5,500 m)
Range: 700 mi (609 nmi, 1,126 km)with internal fuel; 1,040 mi (904 nmi, 1,674 km) with two drop tanks
Service ceiling: 35,800 ft (10,910 m)
Rate of climb: 4,320 ft/min (21.9 m/s)

to be honest the sea fury doesn't seem to be superior to either P/F-51H or F8F-2

 

[mig-31bm]

Depends on speed?

iam not quite sure , what the common speed for dog fight ? 400 , 600 or 700 km/h ?
does the F8F-2 turn much better than P-51H , spitfire , zero ?

Firepower. Can be better night fighters, due to ability to have second crew member. Hornet climbed great at all altitudes, and have had excellent range. Not so much the Tigercat, but that one was probably a rugged bird, being made by Grummann and featuring two radial engines. BTW, the variant of the F7F you mentioned was a night fighter. The P-51H was not well suited for CV work.
Only the F4U qualifies as a 'full' ww2 aircraft.

btw do twin engine dive better as well , i mean as they are heavier
here what i can find , it quite hard for me to see which is which but it seem that the tiger cat climb better than any other fighters in the graph at all altitude

 

[Glider]

It was just so much cooler

 

[mig-31bm]

It was just so much cooler

hahahaha , i think the the ta-152 is the most beautiful AC

 

[mig-31bm]

I would forget the Spiteful - the handling wasn't, apparently, up to Spitfire standards and it didn't take much to stuff up the "laminar" flow wings, so that the performance was barely more than a contemporary Spitfire.

For Spitfires there is the Mk 24. The 20-series Spits had a stronger wing than the earlier Spits, 4 cannon armament (short barrel Mk V Hispanos) and later Griffon variants. They could still climb quite well, but didn't turn as well as a Mk XIV/XVIII.

Also, initial climb rates can be misleading. The P-51H had a higher initial climb rate than the Spitfire XIV, but time to altitude is closely matched to 20,000ft, and in the Spits favour to 30,000ft.

For a post war development, it would have been interesting to see a XIV/XVIII (the XVIII was an improved XIV) with the three speed 2 stage 100-series Griffon from one of the Spiteful prototypes. The two speed Griffons, in British parlance, used Medium Supercharged (MS) and Fully Supercharged (FS) gears. The three speed added a Low Supercharged (LS) gear to improve power at lower altitudes. Should have helped initial climb rate and time to climb.

yeah i do agree that the spitfire seem to have really impressive performer

 

[Glider]

hahahaha , i think the the ta-152 is the most beautiful AC

There no accounting for taste.

 

[tomo pauk]

Maybe it would be a god idea to delete the graphs from wwiiaircraftperformance.com, and just stating links instead?

The Sea Fury was a CV aircraft, and that always involves a performance penalty. It would be good to compare speeds at, say, 5000 ft, than at 15000 ft, than at 25000 ft, to arrive at more complete figures?

 

[BiffF15]

iam not quite sure , what the common speed for dog fight ? 400 , 600 or 700 km/h ?
does the F8F-2 turn much better than P-51H , spitfire , zero ?

The "depends on speed" that Tomo speaks of means: At a given altitude and speed state (meaning constant speed or higher g-loading decelerating speed) an aircraft will have a defined turn radius and degrees per second that it turns. The smaller the circle and greater the degrees per second the better. It is usually not a linear event, or a slow speed excellent turning aircraft will not always translate into an excellent high speed turning aircraft or vice versa.

Speeds for dogfights vary depending on the situation. You turn at a state that will allow you to survive (avoid being shot) or gain the offensive (allowing you the opportunity to shoot / employ weapons). The goal being to kill him before he kills you (just stating the obvious). The methodology being to bring your aircrafts strengths to bear upon his weaknesses, and not allow him to do that to you.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[CobberKane]

One interesting point regarding the diagram for the turning circles of fighters in the earlier post; had the Vampire been included it would have knocked the Spit IXV off top spot. Floating around on the net somewhere is a comparative report on the two aircraft that found the Vampire out-turned the Spitfire easily. The Spitfire out-climbed the Vampire, but the difference in speed was such that it represented no offensive advantage

 

[MikeGazdik]

Charts and Stats be damned, the second question is most important to me. With the listed contenders, Grumman F8f. I like a lot of the other aircraft listed, but if my butt is on the line, I want a Bearcat in this fight. This is due to it's overall package, not one particular part of its performance relative to the others.

 

[GrauGeist]

Dunno, the Corsair handed the enemy it's ass more times than can be counted...

If I was a betting man, I'd put my money on the Corsair when things got ugly. Every time.

 

[mig-31bm]

Maybe it would be a god idea to delete the graphs from wwiiaircraftperformance.com, and just stating links instead?

The Sea Fury was a CV aircraft, and that always involves a performance penalty. It would be good to compare speeds at, say, 5000 ft, than at 15000 ft, than at 25000 ft, to arrive at more complete figures?

so in general which one is more agile and faster at low altitude ( about 5000 ft -10000 ft ) a bear cat F8F-2 or sea fury or Seafire XV ?

 

[mig-31bm]

The "depends on speed" that Tomo speaks of means: At a given altitude and speed state (meaning constant speed or higher g-loading decelerating speed) an aircraft will have a defined turn radius and degrees per second that it turns. The smaller the circle and greater the degrees per second the better. It is usually not a linear event, or a slow speed excellent turning aircraft will not always translate into an excellent high speed turning aircraft or vice versa.

i do know this , however people have been told alot about how agile the bearcat compared to other fighter so i kind of get the impression that it turn well at both low and high speed
so let say a bearcat ( F8F-2 ) and a P-51H at 20.000 ft or higher which one would turn better ? , and is the different significant ?

 

[tomo pauk]

What does the data at wwiiaircraftperformce.com say, at least for speed? You may also find out the power-to-weight ratios, and then determine the agility.

 

[mig-31bm]

What does the data at wwiiaircraftperformce.com say, at least for speed? You may also find out the power-to-weight ratios, and then determine the agility.

i can see their top speed at their best altitude but unable to find their speed at different altitude , also if the engine power change by altitude at different rate in different fighter wasn't their power to weight ratio also change ?

 

[tomo pauk]

Now you have me scratching my head between what little of hair is left. The website has tables charts for speeds at altitudes, for all of the 3 A/C you are asking. What tests were you reading there, that don't have speed tables and graphs?
The engine power does change with altitude, you can go to the site and dig the engines' tables and charts; some tables charts are available here.

 

[mig-31bm]

Now you have me scratching my head between what little of hair is left. The website has tables charts for speeds at altitudes, for all of the 3 A/C you are asking. What tests were you reading there, that don't have speed tables and graphs?
The engine power does change with altitude, you can go to the site and dig the engines' tables and charts; some tables charts are available here.

this one P-51H Performance Test
and i can't find the one for F8F-2 or seafire and no info about turn rate
and the P-51H in the test seem very slow ,i found a pdf file of the F8f-2 that show it have the same speed at high altitude , wasn't P-51H mean to be faster than the bearcat especially at high altitude ?

Maximum speed at critical altitudes

High blower (67.0" and 3000 RPM) 30750' 450.0 MPH
(61.0" and 3000 RPM) 32550' 444.5 MPH

Low blower (67.0" and 3000 RPM) 16400' 435.0 MPH
(61.0" and 3000 RPM) 19300' 432.5 MPH
B. Maximum speed at sea level
(67.0" and 3000 RPM) 358.0 MPH
(61.0" and 3000 RPM) 351.0 MPH
C. Rate of Climb
1. Sea Level (67.0" and 3000 RPM) 3200 ft/min.
(61.0" and 3000 RPM) 2875 ft/min.

2. Low blower critical altitudes
(67.0" and 3000 RPM) 3395 ft/min.
(61.0" and 3000 RPM) 3080 ft/min.

3. High blower critical altitudes
(67.0" and 3000 RPM) 2640 ft/min.
(61.0" and 3000 RPM) 2360 ft/min.

4. Time to climb to service ceiling
(67.0" and 3000 RPM) 23.7 min.
(61.0" and 3000 RPM) 24.6 min.

and then i found this which confuse me even further ??

Performance (Air Superiority, with two 165 gallon drop tanks)

Maximum Speed

300~ MPH at Sea Level
413 MPH at Sea Level with Water Injection
391 MPH at 22,700 ft
474 MPH at 22,700 ft with Water Injection
437~ MPH (roughly) at 33,000 ft (roughly) with Water Injection

http://www.alternatewars.com/WW2/Aircraft/P-51HML.htm

 

[tomo pauk]

Link from that test: speed graph. There is also several other tests of the P-51H there, both with tables and charts.
F8F-2 : SAC
Fury and Sea Fury data (3 files) is accessible under British A/C 'group'. Ditto for Seafire XV (one file, though).

 

[mig-31bm]

Link from that test: speed graph. There is also several other tests of the P-51H there, both with tables and charts.
F8F-2 : SAC
Fury and Sea Fury data (3 files) is accessible under British A/C 'group'. Ditto for Seafire XV (one file, though).

i seen the graph but wasn't the top speed for P-51H is sth like 487mph or 471mph ? , in this graph the top speed of it is only 450 mph , can you gave me the graph for other test of P-51H as well ?
also where can i find info about the turn rate of sea fury , seafire , bearcat and P-51H ?

 

[tomo pauk]

The speed graph for the P-51H from the test you've posted was done on 61 and 67 in Hg of manifold pressure (MAP). That means that ADI )water-methanol mixture) was not used. With ADI, the engine was capable for 90 in Hg of manifold pressure. More MAP = more HP = greater speed. On the other hand, some tests clearly state that, even with 90 in Hg, the P-51H was capable for only 450 mph.
You can find several tests of the P-51H here (scroll down a bit). Some data about maneuverability (not just that) can be found here.