Admiral Beez
Major
I count nine individual questions and a closing demand. Isn't that a little over the top?
This is a discussion forum, not an inquisition.
Comparison of Pacific, Indian Ocean, Mediterranean, and North Atlantic naval combat
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This is a discussion forum, not an inquisition.
- Thread starter
- #62
They seem to compare quite well. Lets do some of that.
Japanese Recon
E8N - obsolete biplane scout aircraft flown from a few battleships,. Range 558 miles, 190 mph, 2 x LMG
F1M - an obsolete but apparently quite scrappy biplane floatplane scout / fighter, flown off of Battleships and Cruisers. Range 460 miles. 230 mph, 2 x offensive LMG, 1 x defensive
A6M2-N - Floatplane fighter. Top speed 270 mph. Range 730 miles. Armament 2 x LMG, 2 x 20mm.
H6K - Big, somewhat obsolescent flying boat. Speed 210 mph. Range 2900 miles. Armament 4 x LMG and 1 x 20mm. Can carry two torpedoes or 2,200 lb bombs.
H8K - Big state of the art four engine flying boat. Speed 290 mph. Range 4000 miles. Armament 5 x 20mm and 4 x LMG. 2 x torpedoes or 4,400 lbs bombs
E13 - Standard Japanese scout flying from Cruisers. Speed 234 mph, range 1,200 miles. One defensive LMG.
Ki-46 - High speed twin engine recon plane. Speed 375 mph, range 1,500 miles. One defensive LMG.
Italian / German Recon
Ro. 43 - Obsolescent Italian biplane scout. Range 500-930 miles. Speed 190 mph. Arms 2 x 7.7mm (I think one defensive)
Ro. 44 - Similar to Ro.43
AR-196 - Armed float plane scout often flown from ships. Range 670 miles, speed 193 mph, 2 x 20 mm and 2 x LMG (defensive)
CANT Z.506 - Trimotor flying boat. Top speed 220 mph. Range 1,200 miles. 1 x HMG, 3 x LMG. Can carry one torpedo.
BV 138 - Weird (but well armed) little German trimotor flying boat. Speed 177 mph, range 760 miles, 2 x 20mm, 1 x HMG, up to 3 LMG. (small numbers)
FW 189 - Light twin engined German scout. 214 mph. 580 mile range. 2 x LMG, 2 x LMG (defensive) (small numbers)*
He 115 - Heavy twin engined seaplane scout. 203 mph. 1,300 mile range. 1 x LMG, 1 x LMG (defensive) . One torpedo, mine or 2,700 lbs of bombs. (small numbers)
Caproni 310 - Light twin engined Italian scout. 227 mph, 1,050 mile range. 2 x LMG, 1 x LMG (defensive) (small numbers)
Caproni 313 - Light twin engined Italian Scout. 268 mph. 1050 mile range. 2 x LMG, 1 x LMG (defensive)
Fw 200 - German four engined maritime patrol. Speed 240 mph, range 2,200 miles, 1 x 20mm, 1 x HMG, 4 x LMG. (small numbers)
* not sure if those were used in Maritime role or not
Japanese Strike
G3M - Japanese Navy twin engined bomber - 233 mph,, 2,700 mile range, 1 x 20mm, 4 x LMG, 1 x torpedo or 1,800 lb bombs
G4M - Japanese Navy twin engined bomber - 266 mph, 1,700 mile range, 1 x 20mm, 4 x LMG, 1 x torpedo or 2200 lb bombs
Ki-21 - Japanese Army twin engined bomber - 300 mph, 1,700 mile range, 1 x HMG, 5 x LMG, 2200 lb bombs
Ki-48 - Japanese Army twin-engined bomber - 314 mph, 1,500 mile range, 3 x LMG, 1764 lbs of bombs
Ki-49 - Japanese Army twin engined bomber - 306 mph, 1,200 mile range. 1 x 20mm and 3 x HMG, 2 x LMG. Armorand & self-sealing tanks. 2200 lb bombs.
B5N - Japanese torpedo bomber - Speed 235, range 978, 1 x torpedo
D3A - Japanese dive bomber - Speed 240 mph, 915 mile range, 550 / 870 lbs bombs
D4Y - Japanese dive bomber - Speed 340 mph, 910 mile range, 550 / 1100 lbs bombs
Italian / German Strike
Fiat BR.20 - Italian twin-engine bomber - Speed 270 mph, range 1,700 miles, 3 x HMG, bombs 3530 lb
SM. 79 - Italian Trimotor bomber - Speed 290 mph, range 1600 miles, 2 x HMG, 2 x LMG, bombs 2,645 lbs or 1 torpedo**
SM. 84 - Italian trimotor bomber - Speed 290 mph, Range 1100 miles, 4 x HMG, bombs 2,000 lbs or 1 torpedo
CANT 1007 - Italian trimotor bomber - Speed 285 mph , Range 1100, 2 x HMG, 2 x LMG, bombs 2,645 lbs / 4900 lbs or 2 x torpedoes
He 111 - German twin engined bomber - Speed 270 mph, Range 1,400 miles, 1 x 20mm, 1 x HMG, 7 x LMG, bombs 4400 / 7900 or one or two torpedoes
Ju-87B - German dive bomber - Speed 236 mph, range 370 miles, 2 x LMG, 1 x LMG (defensive), bombs 1100 lbs / 1540 lbs
Ju-87D - German dive bomebr - Speed 240 mph, range 683 miles , 2 x 20mm, 2 x LMG (defensive) bombs 1100 lbs / 1540 lbs
Ju-87R - German dive bomber - Speed 220 mph, range 492 miles*, 2 x LMG, 2 x LMG (defensive), bombs 1100 lbs
Ju-88 - German schnellbomber - Speed 290 mph, range, 1,100 miles, 5 x LMG, bombs 2000 lbs / 6660 lbs
* Wikipedia says a strike range of 220 miles
** It says two but in practice they only carried one
Do you have a more nuanced version of this statement? Post it then.
Are you claiming that all the Ju-87 used against Pedestal or the previous convoys were Ju-87R with extended range? Because I'd love to see the numbers on that. For Pedestal I saw Ju 87D and Ju87B. How many Ju-87R were flying?
I'll answer this if you tell me what was the largest number of strike aircraft in any raid in Pedestal or one of the other Med convoys.
That's a lot of work you are asking me to do lol. Count every sortie against all US carriers in 1942? Maybe somebody else will do that for you.
I still say the Skua, the Fulmar and the Sea Hurricane were pretty lousy fighters with a bad combat record.
EDIT: Added the Ki-48 Lily bomber and E8N scout plane, removed the B6N which wasn't available until 1943.
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Admiral Beez
Major
The Fulmar had a good record as a fighter, it's the top scoring FAA of all time. Yes, the Axis gave the Fulmar what it needed in the form of unescorted Stukas and Sparrowhawks, but that's not the Fulmar's fault. Put the Fulmar against any Axis monoplane single seat fighter and it's toast, but that wasn't really part of the Fulmar's combat experience.
But Skua, damn that's no fighter you FAA/AM fools.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Even though I know better I just can't see the Swordfish as a dive bomber.
You need to provide something more than that, simple repetition doesn't cut it.
Actually it's not hard at all. The IJNAF only attacked USN carrier TFs during ~ 6 battles in 1942.
Bougainville = 18 Bettys (plus a few more sorties against other carrier raids)
Coral Sea = 51 = 33 Val and 18 Kate
Midway = 28 = 18 Val and 10 Kate (two strikes)
Eastern Solomons = 27 Vals
Santa Cruz = 109 = 58 Vals and 51 Kates.
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= ~224 IJN strike aircraft sorties against USN carrier TFs in all of 1942.
BWOC, the IJN flew about 180 attack sorties against units of the BEF on 5 and 9 April 1942.
The Axis AFs flew about 230 attack sorties against Pedestal alone during the time it was escorted by carriers.
- Thread starter
- #68
Well, I already posted the results of their encounters with Japanese fighters in the Indian Ocean and that was pretty dismal
You missed the IJN Nakajima E8N 'Dave' : Nakajima E8N ~190mph and ~500nm range. It was used for recon during 1942.
and the E7K/E7K2 'Alf' Kawanishi E7K `~170mph and 1000nm range.
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Neither the D4Y or B6N played any role as a carrier strike aircraft in 1942.
Only 25 D4Ys were built from early 1942 to early 1943, when it was put into volume production. AFAIK, it only flew a single sortie as recon aircraft at Midway.
The B6N did not enter production until Feb 1943.
All Variants of the JU87B onward could carry DTs but as we've discussed, this was rarely necessary because RN carriers had to operate within range of non DT equipped JU87s. JU87B/R max bomb load was 1000kg and Ju87D 2000kg,
I gave you an example of the JU87Rs sinking HMS Southampton at ~300 miles from Sicily.
The Sea Hurricane had a very positive kill ratio during the Harpoon and Pedestal Convoys, 28 victories vs 8 losses, IIRC (Malta, the Spitfire Years). Only land based Fulmars encountered IJN aircraft during the attack on Ceylon and they and RAF Hurricanes did about as well as the USMC fighters on Midway.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Did the Fulmars and RAF Hurricanes do as well as the USN fighters at Midway?
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Sorry. I'm bored.
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
Considering the Marine units were flying mostly Buffalo's... (20 out of 26 total)
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
Only 6? Well hell I'm sure the BPF could shrug that off no sweat.
- Thread starter
- #76
I think you are doing some really creative cherry-picking here, I'll unpack it when I have more time later today.
- Thread starter
- #77
Right. The Sea Hurricane had a "terrific" combat record similar to the Brewter Buffalo in the Pacific... I guess it all depends what you consider good.
- Thread starter
- #78
There was only one E8 "Dave" at Midway, flying from the Battleship Haruna, but you felt compelled to put that in. Right?
I never states I was making a Midway a cutoff, as Pedestal was several months later than Midway. I was comparing aircraft active in 1942. There were D4Y stationed in the Pacific through the second half of 1942.
You got me here, that was an oversight. I just saw first flight in 1941. It's what I get for being hasty.
The point about the Stukas and their normally very limited range, and same for the MC 202 and Bf 109s available) is that while you implied Pedestal was under attack by 600 aircraft, the reality is that 1) most of those 600 planes were not modern aircraft and many were not even really combat aircraft (rather recon or liaison), and 2) only a small percentage of the actually effective strike aircraft could attack the convoy at any one time.
The TO&E posted by Slaterat showed 26 x Ju 87D from I/StG 3, and 14 x Ju 87B & R . So that means at the very most, there were maybe a dozen Ju-87R flown by Italian pilots. Probably more like half a dozen. The elite StG 2 unit which sunk Southampton was in Russia by then.
The only relatively effective long range Strike aircraft available to the Axis during Pedestal were the 144 x Ju-88A they had stationed in Sicily. No doubt the reason they had so many of these in Theater is that they were the only really effective maritime strike aircraft the Axis had at the time. These were pretty good strike aircraft, though nowhere near as lethal of ship killers as say, the D3A. Or the Stuka. But the problem was their range far outstripped that of any of their fighter escorts. Even if you count the 8 x Bf 110C and 12 x Ju88C heavy fighters that were in Theater, these may best Skuas or Fulmars but would have a hard time against even Sea Hurricanes, let alone any of the land based fighters. This and the prevalence of the obsolescent Italian Trimotors in the force breakdown perhaps explains why so many of the air strikes against Pedestal resulted in "no damage".
Basically the only real danger zone was when they were coming within range of the German fighters (and Stukas) near Sicily and / or Tunis. The vast majority of this impressive force of 600 aircraft were no threat to Pedestal and the ones which could credibly attack did so piecemeal, and in much smaller number.
I don't know the actual distance to the target but the Southampton was sunk more than a year before Pedestal, during Operation Excess.
Glider
Captain
I know I have a habit of looking at things in a simplistic way but its served me well over the years. There can be no doubt that the Fulmar and the Sea Hurricane performed well when they had to. However it's also clear that this was almost certainly down to the skill of the pilots, the air intercept directors as well as the tactical situation they were in plus of course the majority of the opposition were unescorted.
It's also true that the Hurricane was inferior to the Me109E a fact that has been shown in many areas of conflict, and a Zero was at least as good as the 109E. There are comparison tests undertaken by Allied pilots which proved that the Zero was every bit as good as the Spit V so its ascendency over the Hurricane is unquestioned. Its worth remembering that the Allied Airforces in the Far East considered the Hurricane to be obsolete when matched against the Ki43 let alone anything else.
To believe that the Sea Hurricane and the Fulmar were even close to parity to the Zero or Ki43 is far from reality
Looking in from the outside there seems to be little difference between the dive bombers, the main difference would be in the quality of the training. Some types / versions had more range but in actuality all seemed to have had sufficient range for the jobs they were asked to do.
It's also true that the Hurricane was inferior to the Me109E a fact that has been shown in many areas of conflict, and a Zero was at least as good as the 109E. There are comparison tests undertaken by Allied pilots which proved that the Zero was every bit as good as the Spit V so its ascendency over the Hurricane is unquestioned. Its worth remembering that the Allied Airforces in the Far East considered the Hurricane to be obsolete when matched against the Ki43 let alone anything else.
To believe that the Sea Hurricane and the Fulmar were even close to parity to the Zero or Ki43 is far from reality
Looking in from the outside there seems to be little difference between the dive bombers, the main difference would be in the quality of the training. Some types / versions had more range but in actuality all seemed to have had sufficient range for the jobs they were asked to do.
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- #80
Unescorted and obsolete
Agree with 90% of that. The dive bombers range was significantly different - I was being pretty generous with the Ju 87D I don't think it's actual strike range was anywhere near that far. But even if that was right, D3A is still ~300 miles longer range, which matters a lot in naval combat.
