Contenders in German "Bomber A" Program

[Zipper730]

I know there was Heinkel's design (P.1041), which became the He.177 Greif; there was Blohm & Voss's P.33; Junkers submitted a design called the EF.61 or EF.71 (forgot which), and a designation called the Ju-85, which despite generally being a Ju-88 with a twin-tail, appeared to have had several iterations, or the designation was used more than once.



There was also at least two proposals from Messerschmitt/BFW, and an unspecified Henschel project that I know of (I asked earlier today from a person who's a member of Secret Projects): I'm curious if anybody has additional data on the matter.

Airframes davparlr , drgondog , Elmas , GrauGeist , GregP , Micdrow , M MIflyer , MiTasol , Shinpachi S Shortround6 , tomo pauk

 

[MIflyer]

The book "Luftwaffe Over America" describes and discusses various German long range bomber projects.

My conclusion was that had they known that the prototype B-29 was flying in late 1942 they would have crapped their pants.

 

[Zipper730]

The book "Luftwaffe Over America" describes and discusses various German long range bomber projects.

Do you have any details from the book? I can add it to my list, for the time being.

My conclusion was that had they known that the prototype B-29 was flying in late 1942 they would have crapped their pants.

Actually, the plans were to use the B-32 over Europe. Still, with a pressurized cabin and everything, they probably would have done an equal job shitting.

 

[GrauGeist]

Not sure if the Germans would have "crapped their pants" as they still held the majority of air superiority in 1942 over Europe with no real Allies fighter on hand to serve as escort.
They also had the Me264 which was comparable to the B-29, but was abandoned for other projects. The Me264's first flight was just a few months after the B-29's first flight in 1942, also.

 

[wuzak]

Not sure if the Germans would have "crapped their pants" as they still held the majority of air superiority in 1942 over Europe with no real Allies fighter on hand to serve as escort.
They also had the Me264 which was comparable to the B-29, but was abandoned for other projects. The Me264's first flight was just a few months after the B-29's first flight in 1942, also.

The difference was that the B-29 took to the air with 4 2,200hp engines, the Me 264 was stuck with 4 1,200hp engines (the Jumo 211).

The original plan was for the Me 264 to use the 1,750hp Db 603, but they weren't ready in time. The Jumo 211s were replaced by BMW 801s of 1,700hp, with which the aircraft was still underpowered.

Other alternative engines were either not ready or not considered. Such as the Jumo 222 or Db 610.

The latter was probably not considered due to the experience with the He 177, though it appeared to function well enough on the Me 261.

 

[Zipper730]

The difference was that the B-29 took to the air with 4 2,200hp engines, the Me 264 was stuck with . . . . BMW 801s of 1,700hp, with which the aircraft was still underpowered.

And yet it was to have a range that would have eclipsed the B-29 in most any configuration.

 

[GrauGeist]

And since the engines were the key issue and weren't remedied in time, the 264 was abandoned.

Which happened to quite a few promising types available to the Luftwaffe.

 

[wuzak]

And since the engines were the key issue and weren't remedied in time, the 264 was abandoned.

Which happened to quite a few promising types available to the Luftwaffe.

As well as the priorities changing to fighters.

 

[wuzak]

And yet it was to have a range that would have eclipsed the B-29 in most any configuration.

Theoretically.

 

[MIflyer]

I think that in mid-1944 it would have been a good idea to take a few of the more senior Luftwaffe pilots we had captured and given them a tour. First go to Grumman on Long Island where they were in a race with NAA at Inglewood to see who could turn out more fighters in a day, usually building around 18 airplanes a day. Then to Republic to look at P-47's and Chance Vought to see F4U's. Then to Goodyear to see their Corsair production and Indiana to see the other P-47 plant, followed by Willow Run to look at a B-24 coming off the line every hour. Then to Nashville to see the new P-38 plant and then Kansas for the B-29 factory, followed by Kansas City for the B-25's. Then to Dallas for the new P-51 plant, followed by Inglewood to see the main NAA plant and Burbank for P-38's followed by B-17 production at Van Nuys and Long Beach. Next go down to San Diego to see more B-24's and Seattle for B-17's and B-29's.

Then send them home via Switzerland or Sweden or Spain, getting there right about 7 June 1944. Let them talk about what they saw.

 

[tyrodtom]

I think that in mid-1944 it would have been a good idea to take a few of the more senior Luftwaffe pilots we had captured and given then a tour. First go to Grumman on Long Island where they were in a race with NAA at Inglewood to see who could turn out more fighters in a day, usually building around 18 airplanes a day. Then to Republic to look at P-47's and Chance Vought to see F4U's. Then to Goodyear to see their Corsair production and Indiana to see the other P-47 plant, followed by Willow Run to look at a B-24 coming off the line every hour. Then to Nashville to see the new P-38 plant and then Kansas for the B-29 factory, followed by Kansas City for the B-25's. Then to Dallas for the new P-51 plant, followed by Inglewood to see the main NAA plant and Burbank for P-38's followed by B-17 production at Van Nuys and Long Beach. Next go down to San Diego to see more B-24's and Seattle for B-17's and B-29's.

Then send them home via Switzerland or Sweden or Spain, getting there right about 7 June 1944. Let them talk about what they saw.

The Gestapo probably would have built a new concentration camp, just for them.

 

[GrauGeist]

The Gestapo probably would have built a new concentration camp, just for them.

More than likely that a cheaper alternative would have been used...

 

[tyrodtom]

More than likely that a cheaper alternative would have been used...

That's probably more likely.
Late in the war German civilians were put to the guillotine for spreading "allied propaganda", as it was called,
The military would handle the same offense probably with a firing squad.

 

[GrauGeist]

And if the pilot was a notable figure (such as Rommel was, for example), then they'd be given the choice to "die honorably" and be given a Hero's burial or else...

 

[Elmas]

I think that in mid-1944 it would have been a good idea to take a few of the more senior Luftwaffe pilots we had captured and given then a tour. First go to Grumman on Long Island where they were in a race with NAA at Inglewood to see who could turn out more fighters in a day, usually building around 18 airplanes a day. Then to Republic to look at P-47's and Chance Vought to see F4U's. Then to Goodyear to see their Corsair production and Indiana to see the other P-47 plant, followed by Willow Run to look at a B-24 coming off the line every hour. Then to Nashville to see the new P-38 plant and then Kansas for the B-29 factory, followed by Kansas City for the B-25's. Then to Dallas for the new P-51 plant, followed by Inglewood to see the main NAA plant and Burbank for P-38's followed by B-17 production at Van Nuys and Long Beach. Next go down to San Diego to see more B-24's and Seattle for B-17's and B-29's.

Then send them home via Switzerland or Sweden or Spain, getting there right about 7 June 1944. Let them talk about what they saw.

When the war for Italy was about to start, June 1940, Italo Balbo, the known Italian aviator, was desperate:
"The Duce has never seen the phone book of New York!" very sadly told to his staff.

 

[Elmas]

Unfortunately I have not many informations about $-engine Luftwaffe bombers, sorry.
Four engine Luftwaffe bombers are certainly very interesting by the side of the engineering history, but not from the military side...
Certailnly Luftwaffe could not afford things like this:



No aluminium, workforce and general resources to build them.
No gas to operate (and train...) them.
And no skilled crew to man them...

 

[tyrodtom]

Unfortunately I have not many informations about $-engine Luftwaffe bombers, sorry.
Four engine Luftwaffe bombers are certainly very interesting by the side of the engineering history, but not from the military side...
Certailnly Luftwaffe could not afford things like this:

View attachment 574490

No aluminium, workforce and general resources to build them.
No gas to operate (and train...) them.
And no skilled crew to man them...

That picture was probably taken after the war in Europe was over, but think if it wasn't, what effect it might have had on the German's moral if the allies had sent it to them.

 

[JAG88]

I know there was Heinkel's design (P.1041), which became the He.177 Greif; there was Blohm & Voss's P.33; Junkers submitted a design called the EF.61 or EF.71 (forgot which), and a designation called the Ju-85, which despite generally being a Ju-88 with a twin-tail, appeared to have had several iterations, or the designation was used more than once.

View attachment 574339 View attachment 574340 View attachment 574341 View attachment 574343 View attachment 574344

There was also at least two proposals from Messerschmitt/BFW, and an unspecified Henschel project that I know of (I asked earlier today from a person who's a member of Secret Projects): I'm curious if anybody has additional data on the matter.

Airframes davparlr drgondog Elmas GrauGeist Micdrow M MIflyer MiTasol Shinpachi S Shortround6 tomo pauk

I thought Heinkel was pretty much handed the A project, I didnt know there was a contest with the Junkers project being a private venture that ended up being the basis for Bomber B, the Ju 288.

 

[JAG88]

Unfortunately I have not many informations about $-engine Luftwaffe bombers, sorry.
Four engine Luftwaffe bombers are certainly very interesting by the side of the engineering history, but not from the military side...
Certailnly Luftwaffe could not afford things like this:

View attachment 574490

No aluminium, workforce and general resources to build them.
No gas to operate (and train...) them.
And no skilled crew to man them...

Please do name a bomber force better trained and equipped than the LWs in 1939-1940... thx.

And apparently they did manage to build lots of aircraft and fuel them... odd.

 

[GrauGeist]

The Luftwaffe training was meticulous, there is no doubt about that. However, it was extensive and was not providing pilots fast enough as the war wore on.

In regards to their "lots of aircraft", no...they did not have "lots" of them. They started the war with 737 bombers, 614 fighters, 134 dive bombers and others for a total of 1,928.

How can one reasonably justify starting a war with fewer than 2,000 aircraft?