Contract number and serial numbers for Halifax MkIII bomber LW682

[jay hammond]

I am looking for a working online source to find out what the contract number was for Halifax LW682. I am also trying to find out where exactly the finishing of the assembly was done before the plane was delivered to the 432 Squadron in Yorkshire. I would also like to find out who delivered it. Basically I'm trying to find out as much about Halifax LW682 and its production cohorts as possible. Thanks.

 

[nuuumannn]

Haalifax LW682 was built by English Electric Co Ltd at Salmesbury, Lancs and was listed in the serial batch of LW671-LW696 to Contract No. ACFT/1808, requisition HA1/E11/42, for 360 aircraft in total. In asking who delivered the aircraft to the squadron, do you mean the Maintenance Unit?

Online sources might not be able to help with much more, but you could try the RAF Museum Department of Research, which has copies of Aircraft Movement Cards (Air Ministry Form 78) on microfilm, which should list the MU.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

What is meant by production cohorts? And what information is wanted?

According to the serial registers and contract cards Halifax III LW682 was Taken on Charge on 28 February 1944 then delivered direct to 432 squadron and listed as missing on 31 March 1944. W.R. Chorley notes it could have been LW687 lost that night, the serial registers say it went missing 30 March 1944. Chorley lists LW682 as one of 7 shot down that night by Oblt. Martin Becker. Nachtjagd War Diaries does not match LW682 to a night fighter claim, it does match 7 losses to Becker's claims.

LW682, 686, 687 were all delivered direct to 432 squadron 28 February to 6 March 1944. The squadron was re-equipped with mark III during February 1944. From about LW426 on the Halifax almost all cease being allocated to usually 48 Maintenance Unit and instead are allocated direct to a squadron.

A Query on contracts. The contract cards say 450 aircraft in the first order from English Electric and 710 in the second order but the summaries have various conbinations of order number and requisition for the block of 350, the cards listing the deliveries say

Order B982938/39 requisition 116/E1/39 for 450 aircraft, built as mark II, V9976 to 9994, W1002 to 1276, DT481 to 808
Order AC 1808 requisition 116/E1/39 for 350 aircraft, built as mark II, JB781 to 974, JD105 to 476
Order AC 1808 requisition HA1/E1/42 for 360 aircraft, built as 100 II, LW223 to 345 and 260 III, LW346 to 724.

 

[jay hammond]

What is meant by production cohorts? And what information is wanted?

According to the serial registers and contract cards Halifax III LW682 was Taken on Charge on 28 February 1944 then delivered direct to 432 squadron and listed as missing on 31 March 1944. W.R. Chorley notes it could have been LW687 lost that night, the serial registers say it went missing 30 March 1944. Chorley lists LW682 as one of 7 shot down that night by Oblt. Martin Becker. Nachtjagd War Diaries does not match LW682 to a night fighter claim, it does match 7 losses to Becker's claims.

LW682, 686, 687 were all delivered direct to 432 squadron 28 February to 6 March 1944. The squadron was re-equipped with mark III during February 1944. From about LW426 on the Halifax almost all cease being allocated to usually 48 Maintenance Unit and instead are allocated direct to a squadron.

A Query on contracts. The contract cards say 450 aircraft in the first order from English Electric and 710 in the second order but the summaries have various conbinations of order number and requisition for the block of 350, the cards listing the deliveries say

Order B982938/39 requisition 116/E1/39 for 450 aircraft, built as mark II, V9976 to 9994, W1002 to 1276, DT481 to 808
Order AC 1808 requisition 116/E1/39 for 350 aircraft, built as mark II, JB781 to 974, JD105 to 476
Order AC 1808 requisition HA1/E1/42 for 360 aircraft, built as 100 II, LW223 to 345 and 260 III, LW346 to 724.

What is meant by production cohorts? And what information is wanted?

According to the serial registers and contract cards Halifax III LW682 was Taken on Charge on 28 February 1944 then delivered direct to 432 squadron and listed as missing on 31 March 1944. W.R. Chorley notes it could have been LW687 lost that night, the serial registers say it went missing 30 March 1944. Chorley lists LW682 as one of 7 shot down that night by Oblt. Martin Becker. Nachtjagd War Diaries does not match LW682 to a night fighter claim, it does match 7 losses to Becker's claims.

LW682, 686, 687 were all delivered direct to 432 squadron 28 February to 6 March 1944. The squadron was re-equipped with mark III during February 1944. From about LW426 on the Halifax almost all cease being allocated to usually 48 Maintenance Unit and instead are allocated direct to a squadron.

A Query on contracts. The contract cards say 450 aircraft in the first order from English Electric and 710 in the second order but the summaries have various conbinations of order number and requisition for the block of 350, the cards listing the deliveries say

Order B982938/39 requisition 116/E1/39 for 450 aircraft, built as mark II, V9976 to 9994, W1002 to 1276, DT481 to 808
Order AC 1808 requisition 116/E1/39 for 350 aircraft, built as mark II, JB781 to 974, JD105 to 476
Order AC 1808 requisition HA1/E1/42 for 360 aircraft, built as 100 II, LW223 to 345 and 260 III, LW346 to 724.

Thank you very much for your reply to my query. The cohorts I was referring to were the other aircraft in the specific contract that included Halifax LW682. One source said that it was one plane in a batch of 180 aircraft. Can you tell me if it was at Salmesbury that all the pieces were put together and then the finished Bomber rolled out? Any idea how big the factory for this stage of production was? As I said I'm looking for any information on LW682 that I can find. My uncle was the pilot of this plane when it crashed while returning from a raid on May 12/13, 1944 to Louvain. Thanks again.

 

[JDCAVE]

If you flip through this link, you can find the aircraft movement card for this a/c.

Halifax – Bomber Command History

www.lancasterbombers.net

Jim

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Thanks for the date, firstly W.R. Chorley does have LK682 lost on 12/13 May 1944, with 426 squadron, so it had been transferred from 432 squadron assuming the serial register entry is correct. To state a lot of the obvious:

All 8 men on board killed when shot down by a night fighter flown by Hptm Martn Dreves of III/NJG1. Nachtjagd War Diaries agree with the cause of loss, saying the aircraft was Stab III/NJG1, location Schendelbeke, South of Ghent, at 3,000 metres, at 01.09. Chorley lists the crash location as Schendelbeke, Oost Vlaanderen, west bank of the Dender River, about 3 km NNE of Geraardsbergen, Belgium, 5 of the crew buried in the communal cemetery, 3 men have no known graves, including the pilot F/O W.B. Bentz RCAF Croix de Guerre (Belgium) avec Palme. The 8th crew member was manning the under fuselage gun.

Search Awards

www.rcafassociation.ca

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/second-world-war/second-world-war-dead-1939-1947/Pages/search.aspx

The relevant squadron histories can currently be ordered for free from the British Archives. They are also digitsed and you can try and read them online through the watermarks. The National Archives | Discovery Advanced Search Form all words "432 squadron" date range 1944 to 1944, on the results page choose available for download only. Look for the Summary and Records of events for the relevant months.

Or else figure out which reel at Royal Canadian Air Force operations record books - Héritage contains what you want and read them a page at a time without watermarks. See Index to RCAF on-line microfilms for an index. (Reel C-12299 page 67 is the 426 squadron diary entry for 12/13 May 1944) The squadron records appear to be out of date order.

The specific contract the aircraft was on is AC or ACFT 1808, against which probably 2 requisitions were made as noted previously. The RAF deliberately left groups of serial numbers unused, "blackout blocks" but the British did not use the USAAF block system production designations.

To follow up on Jim's reference aircraft card for LW682, which says 432 squadron, lost 31 March 1944, page 69.
https://lancasterbombersinfo.ipage.com/Data/Form-78s/Halifax/LW626-LW724/mobile/index.html

The aircraft card for LW687 says with 432 squadron, missing 30 March 1944.

Loss card for LW682 which says 432 squadron, lost on 30 March 1944.
RAF Loss Cards 30 part 2 March 1944

Loss card for LW682 which says 426 squadron, lost on 12 May 1944.
RAF Loss Cards 11 -19 May 1944

I think W.R. Chorley is correct that LW687 was lost on 30 March, not LW682, going through the squadron histories should reveal whether LW682 was transferred from 432 to 426 squadron or not.

Salmesbury was an assembly plant and associated airfield, so yes it was assemble and fly out. According to the Ministry of Aircraft Production English Electric had 12,656 employees as of 26 February 1944, making it the 6th biggest airframe factory, there was a total of 314,776 people employed at airframe firms. By early June airframe factory employment had dropped to 299,555.

In 1941 the main works covered 1,341,510 square feet, up from 261,730 square feet in September 1939.

typing "english electric" samlesbury halifax hampden into a search engine gives plenty of hits. The site is also listed as at Preston. There is a book Memories of the Lancashire Aircraft Industry Ron Freethy

 

[JDCAVE]

The late Bill Walker's site has a sentence or two on this aircraft. Mosl also covered elsewhere.

Canadian Military Aircraft Serial Numbers

Listing of serial numbers of aircraft used by Canadian military organizations, including RCAF, RCN, Canadian Army, Canadian Armed Forces, Air Board, and others.

www.rwrwalker.ca

Note: As Geoffrey points out the Operations Records Books can be found at both TNA as well as Library and Archives Canada. It's a good idea to look at both locations as the quality of the carbon copies can be better at one site as compared to the other. RAF Commands has a decent search engine for TNA:

RAF AIR 27 :: ::

AIR27 National Archives Search engine provided by RAFCommands.com

www.rafcommands.com

You can sign up for an account and download for free. these are Monthly PDF's.

Library and Archives Canada provides page by page JPEGs to download. Best to increase the magnification to at least "3" before downloading, as this increased the file size and resolution on zooming in.

Royal Canadian Air Force operations record book... - Héritage

Royal Canadian Air Force operations record books : C-12307

heritage.canadiana.ca

If you want to know the comings and goings of aircraft, you will want to check the 62 Base ORB's.

Note: aircraft from one squadron could be loaned to another squadron and aircraft movement cards may or may not provide that detail. I don't know for sure.

Jim

 

[jay hammond]

What is meant by production cohorts? And what information is wanted?

According to the serial registers and contract cards Halifax III LW682 was Taken on Charge on 28 February 1944 then delivered direct to 432 squadron and listed as missing on 31 March 1944. W.R. Chorley notes it could have been LW687 lost that night, the serial registers say it went missing 30 March 1944. Chorley lists LW682 as one of 7 shot down that night by Oblt. Martin Becker. Nachtjagd War Diaries does not match LW682 to a night fighter claim, it does match 7 losses to Becker's claims.

LW682, 686, 687 were all delivered direct to 432 squadron 28 February to 6 March 1944. The squadron was re-equipped with mark III during February 1944. From about LW426 on the Halifax almost all cease being allocated to usually 48 Maintenance Unit and instead are allocated direct to a squadron.

A Query on contracts. The contract cards say 450 aircraft in the first order from English Electric and 710 in the second order but the summaries have various conbinations of order number and requisition for the block of 350, the cards listing the deliveries say

Order B982938/39 requisition 116/E1/39 for 450 aircraft, built as mark II, V9976 to 9994, W1002 to 1276, DT481 to 808
Order AC 1808 requisition 116/E1/39 for 350 aircraft, built as mark II, JB781 to 974, JD105 to 476
Order AC 1808 requisition HA1/E1/42 for 360 aircraft, built as 100 II, LW223 to 345 and 260 III, LW346 to 724.

Geoffrey, do you by chance have a list of the serial batches for the 260 Mk III's from LW346 to 724. Minutiae I know but I'm looking to see which batch suffered the most. Thanks. Jay

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Initial production of Halifax III from English Electric,

3 aircraft from LW346 to LW348
37 aircraft from LW361 to LW397
35 aircraft from LW412 to LW446
23 aircraft from LW459 to LW481
28 aircraft from LW495 to LW522
23 aircraft from LW537 to LW559
27 aircraft from LW572 to LW598
46 aircraft from LW613 to LW658
26 aircraft from LW671 to LW696
12 aircraft from LW713 to LW724

 

[jay hammond]

Initial production of Halifax III from English Electric,

3 aircraft from LW346 to LW348
37 aircraft from LW361 to LW397
35 aircraft from LW412 to LW446
23 aircraft from LW459 to LW481
28 aircraft from LW495 to LW522
23 aircraft from LW537 to LW559
27 aircraft from LW572 to LW598
46 aircraft from LW613 to LW658
26 aircraft from LW671 to LW696
12 aircraft from LW713 to LW724

Perfect Geoffrey. Thanks a million. Jay

 

[jay hammond]

Haalifax LW682 was built by English Electric Co Ltd at Salmesbury, Lancs and was listed in the serial batch of LW671-LW696 to Contract No. ACFT/1808, requisition HA1/E11/42, for 360 aircraft in total. In asking who delivered the aircraft to the squadron, do you mean the Maintenance Unit?

Online sources might not be able to help with much more, but you could try the RAF Museum Department of Research, which has copies of Aircraft Movement Cards (Air Ministry Form 78) on microfilm, which should list the MU.

Perfect. Now I know I'm really stretching it here but do the letters and numbers in the following mean anything?

No. ACFT/1808, requisition HA1/E11/42

 

[JDCAVE]

Perfect. Now I know I'm really stretching it here but do the letters and numbers in the following mean anything?

No. ACFT/1808, requisition HA1/E11/42

Someone on RAF Commands might be able to help…or Geoffrey.

Jim

 

[jay hammond]

Someone on RAF Commands might be able to help…or Geoffrey.

Jim

Geoffrey, are you out there?

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Busy trying to avoid Olympus Mons.

Pre war the RAF order system system was usually a 5 or 6 digit contract number often prefixed with the letter B which is often dropped when listing the contracts, with the numbers after a slash showing the year, against this contract a single requisition was made with the final two digits again denoting the year. During wartime contracts often used 4 digits prefixed Aircraft, again usually one requisition, but note the carry over of the requisition on the first two English Electric contracts. The other main alternative was to continue the existing contract by making further requisitions.

So for the Hawker Hurricane, contract B62305/39 with Hawkers
Requisition 7/E1/39, Qty 2100, Notes V7200 to V7862 (496 a/c), Z2308 to Z4018 (1,000 a/c), AS987 to AS990 (4 a/c), BD696 to BE716 (600 a/c)
Requisition 11/E1/40, Qty 1638, Notes BM898 to BP772 (1,250 a/c), HL544 to HM157 (388 a/c)
Requisition 13/E1/41, Qty 1000, Notes HV275 to HW881 (1,000 a/c)
Requisition 13/E1/41, Qty 1500, Notes KW696 to LA144 (1,500 a/c)
Requisition 13/E1/41, Qty 1961, Notes LB542 to LF774 (1,961 a/c), no requisition number on cards from LD serials onwards

English Electric built Halifax
Contract B982938/39, Requisition 116/E11/39, Qty 450, Notes All mark II, 200 V/W serials, 250 DT serials
Contract ACFT 1808, Requisition 116/E11/39, Qty 350, Notes All mark II, JB/JD serials
Contract ACFT 1808, Requisition HA1/E11/42, Qty 360, Notes 100 mark II and 260 III, LW serials
Contract ACFT 2553, Requisition HA15/E11/42, Qty 560, Notes All mark III, 360 MZ serials, 200 NP/NR serials
Contract ACFT 3362, Requisition HA5/E11/43, Qty 400, Notes 80 mark III, 300 VI, 20 VII, RG serials
Contract ACFT 3860, Requisition HA9/E11/43, Qty 25, Notes All mark VI, originally for 350 aircraft, ST serials
Contract ACFT 4418, Requisition HA7/E11/44, Qty 0, Notes Contract cancelled.

As far as I am aware the requisition decodes to ID number (reset to 1 at the start of the new year) / E number meaning is unclear, all Halifax and Stirling requisitions were E11 but Hurricane and Lancaster were E1 for example / year. Pre war it looks like the requisition numbers did not have the middle field, using a single numeric sequence. The first Hurricane order requisition number was 26/36, the second order 56/38, the third order 195/38. When 20 from the first order were built for Canada they were given their own contract number with requisition number 215/38. The order placed for production in Canada was requisition 239/38. It does not give the exact date but it does help sort out the sequence.

 

[jay hammond]

Busy trying to avoid Olympus Mons.

Pre war the RAF order system system was usually a 5 or 6 digit contract number often prefixed with the letter B which is often dropped when listing the contracts, with the numbers after a slash showing the year, against this contract a single requisition was made with the final two digits again denoting the year. During wartime contracts often used 4 digits prefixed Aircraft, again usually one requisition, but note the carry over of the requisition on the first two English Electric contracts. The other main alternative was to continue the existing contract by making further requisitions.

So for the Hawker Hurricane, contract B62305/39 with Hawkers
Requisition 7/E1/39, Qty 2100, Notes V7200 to V7862 (496 a/c), Z2308 to Z4018 (1,000 a/c), AS987 to AS990 (4 a/c), BD696 to BE716 (600 a/c)
Requisition 11/E1/40, Qty 1638, Notes BM898 to BP772 (1,250 a/c), HL544 to HM157 (388 a/c)
Requisition 13/E1/41, Qty 1000, Notes HV275 to HW881 (1,000 a/c)
Requisition 13/E1/41, Qty 1500, Notes KW696 to LA144 (1,500 a/c)
Requisition 13/E1/41, Qty 1961, Notes LB542 to LF774 (1,961 a/c), no requisition number on cards from LD serials onwards

English Electric built Halifax
Contract B982938/39, Requisition 116/E11/39, Qty 450, Notes All mark II, 200 V/W serials, 250 DT serials
Contract ACFT 1808, Requisition 116/E11/39, Qty 350, Notes All mark II, JB/JD serials
Contract ACFT 1808, Requisition HA1/E11/42, Qty 360, Notes 100 mark II and 260 III, LW serials
Contract ACFT 2553, Requisition HA15/E11/42, Qty 560, Notes All mark III, 360 MZ serials, 200 NP/NR serials
Contract ACFT 3362, Requisition HA5/E11/43, Qty 400, Notes 80 mark III, 300 VI, 20 VII, RG serials
Contract ACFT 3860, Requisition HA9/E11/43, Qty 25, Notes All mark VI, originally for 350 aircraft, ST serials
Contract ACFT 4418, Requisition HA7/E11/44, Qty 0, Notes Contract cancelled.

As far as I am aware the requisition decodes to ID number (reset to 1 at the start of the new year) / E number meaning is unclear, all Halifax and Stirling requisitions were E11 but Hurricane and Lancaster were E1 for example / year. Pre war it looks like the requisition numbers did not have the middle field, using a single numeric sequence. The first Hurricane order requisition number was 26/36, the second order 56/38, the third order 195/38. When 20 from the first order were built for Canada they were given their own contract number with requisition number 215/38. The order placed for production in Canada was requisition 239/38. It does not give the exact date but it does help sort out the sequence.

Thanks Geoffrey, very much appreciated. Jay

 

[jay hammond]

G Geoffrey Sinclair

Hi Geoffrey. One more question then I promise I'll let sleeping dogs lie. I'm interested in Halifax LW682. I am wondering, since you such a knowledgeable font of information, if you can tell me when EEP started work on LW682 at Preston, when it rolled off the production line and if all the accessories were installed at Preston or not? Know this is counting hairs on a flies butt but I'm just working backward from its time with the 426 Squadron in May 1944. Thanks. Jay

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Sorry for the late reply, been busy and missed this.

I have no idea on start of assembly day, that would require more detailed records. The US did a lot of work on production measurements including average times from start to end assembly and have published the results. There are some comparable British studies including comparisons between the two industries. I have not seen anything Halifax specific.

The dates say the aircraft came out of the factory ready for squadron service. Looking at the aircraft in the LW serials order, LW203 to 724, from around LW420 on the Halifaxes are usually reported as going direct to squadrons, not via maintenance units. LW682 contract card, 432 squadron, 28 February 1944, allotment 7240. RAF Serial Register, Taken on Charge 28 February 1944. Form 78 Aircraft Card (See URL above), 28 February 1944, 432 squadron, date 29 February, Authority 14/D Allotment 41G/7240. Straight to the squadron.

 

[jay hammond]

Thanks Geoffrey for all your help. The depth of your knowledge is amazing. Cheers, Jay