Corsair and Hellcat in Europe
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wuzak
Captain
Yes, sir, they do indeed "haul arse".
The figures for the Mustang are without drop tanks or bombs, probably so for all the others too (except the Mosquito), so the cruise speed would drop a bit, maybe 15-20mph, on the inward leg of a mission.
The figures for the Mustang are without drop tanks or bombs, probably so for all the others too (except the Mosquito), so the cruise speed would drop a bit, maybe 15-20mph, on the inward leg of a mission.
fubar57
General
How long would it take an Allied fighter to go from protecting the bomber box speed to attacking an enemy formation speed? It seems some can't comprehend this. I'm sure the Allied fighters were bounced occasionally but not "trolling for sharks, you would be eaten in the first 10 minutes" every time
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
Well, cruising along at 25000' with drop tank at less than normal power you would move the throttle to combat power, drop the external tank, and dive away since the LW was above you. They knew exactly where you were (radar) and would not attack unless they had the altitude advantage. How long would it take from a medium cruise setting to attack speed? Without diving (straight level acceleration) how long would it take to accellerate from say 250mph to well over 400mph? I don't know exactly, but quite a few precious seconds, maybe 20-30? That's an eternity when the enemy is attacking you.
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
Sorry Janes is not good enough as a source for you.
I have stated numerous times that max continuous and normal HP are the same.
I didn't forget the fuel needed to get from 5000' to 25000'. The purpose of the reserve for TO and climb to 5000' is so the pilot could more easily compute range. Climb from 5000' to 25000' would take approximately 10-15 minutes and while you are climbing you are also headed in the direction of your mission. Climb speed and minimum cruise speed are very similar, around 170mph. 10 minutes climbing at 170mph is only 28 miles, hardly significant in a 500mi mission, and remember you should be climbing in the direction of your target.
Shortround6
Major General
Except they weren't doing 250mph were they? They were doing 310-320mph even with the tanks. The escorts were not all cruising along at 25,000ft. they flew at different altitudes Some sections/flights several thousand feet higher than some of the others to prevent this sort of thing.
They tried using P-38s at 30,000ft and had some real problems but that shows that not all escorts were at 25,000ft.
I am not sure the German radar was that precise in height finding. ANd if the German fighters didn't attack because they don't have a height advantage, oh well, escort job is done successfully because if they don't attack they aren't shooting at the bombers.
Many of the escort fighters turned into the attacks, not dove away. It gave a head on firing pass and also reversed the height positions. A lot depended on exact circumstances.
fubar57
General
So we are looking at seconds and not half a minute or so to get up to speed? And as you state, not everyone was at the same altitude so there would be different reaction times
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
I've read a lot of encounter reports, not nearly as many as drgondog but quite a few. I don't ever recall seeing any where P-51's dropped externals and dove away... ever. They universally turned into the attacker, diving away is a good way to end up in a Luft Stalag, or worse.
Escorts were typically at varying altitudes and at high cruise speed scissoring over the bomber stream, about every 45 minutes or so they'd throttle up to keep the plugs from fouling, then return to cruise settings.
Mustangs also typically cruised fast so that the work up to engagement speeds was only seconds, geez, drgondog has gone over this a zillion times and still there's questions?
Escorts were typically at varying altitudes and at high cruise speed scissoring over the bomber stream, about every 45 minutes or so they'd throttle up to keep the plugs from fouling, then return to cruise settings.
Mustangs also typically cruised fast so that the work up to engagement speeds was only seconds, geez, drgondog has gone over this a zillion times and still there's questions?
Shortround6
Major General
Janes is OK if you have nothing better. We have better, it is free, it is on this website.
The manuals will show a large variety of cruise settings and at a variety of weights.
Janes may very well be giving a cruise speed and range for plane flying on it's own as a comparison to other planes flying on their own which is a valid way of comparing airplanes. It is a lousy way of getting information on speeds and ranges of formations consisting of hundreds of aircraft.
Will you please read something about how the missions were actually flown?
Many of these fighters flew in circles as they climbed. Why?
Because they did not take-off in ones, twos or threes and immediately set course for Germany as soon as they cleared the runway. They took off and formed up into squadrons and then finished the climb so as not to loose anybody. It also allowed any stragglers to catch up. a plane that had temporary problems that could be cleared up in a few minutes. May be landing gear had to cycled more than once ot fully retract or something? temporary radio issue?
Then they had to rendezvous with the bombers (who did the same thing except very few bombers took off two at a time) , or set a course to point where they would relieve and earlier group of fighters, flying as group ment one or two pilots (usually the most experienced) were responsible for navigation and not each pilot or pair doing the best they could to wind up at at given point at a given time.
170mph is a perfectly lousy cruise speed for many American fighters. It may work for the Navy planes but the army planes (especially the P-47) had higher stalling speeds and higher best climb speeds. for instance best climb for P-47 even with a small amount of external fuel at 15,000ft was 165mph indicated which is actually 225mph true.
Once again, best climbs at three different weights (and at different altitudes) are often given in manuals.
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
So, if you are flying at 25000' with drop tanks and you are bounced from above you kept your tanks and turned into your attacker?
Yes, turning into your attacker was policy and a good one, but not when every variable was against you (drop tanks, lower speed, attacked from above). Your attacker is diving at say 500mph and you are cruising at say 320mph? And you keep your tanks and engage by turning into him? You're about to become an easy victory claim.
Say you are going 350mph, how many seconds does it take to get to top speed over 400mph? Many precious seconds, probably at least 10 while the LW is diving on you.
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
You have obviously seen the charts, post them yourself. Thread is about the Hellcat and Corsair in Europe. You brought up the P-39, so I included a little comparison for you.
Pete,
There is a tremendous amount of high quality information on here that has been culled for those people (pretty much all of us) who are looking for a little more than what the average book has to offer. Unfortunately a new guy doesn't absorb it all as quickly as we would like and sometimes attitudes, preconceived notions need time to be worked through. Drgondog/ Bill is exceptionally good at answering aLOT of these mission specifics so hopefully he will chime in.
Cheers,
Biff
buffnut453
Captain
Again, you're selectively answering just one post and ignoring all the others. With several formations of fighters, it's entirely possible that another friendly group is above the enemy or in a better position to respond.
As to turning into the enemy, yes that's entirely the RIGHT tactic. It cuts down the time the adversary has to get a shot in and gives you a chance to bring your guns to bear. Once the enemy is past you, you can then reverse and translate that little extra potential energy (height) into kinetic energy to chase after the enemy.
If you dive away, you lose sight of the enemy ('cos he's behind you), and you still won't accelerate fast enough to get away, so you'll actually present an easier target for a longer time period than if you turn into the foe.
Remember the job of the fighters is to protect the bombers. You can't do that if you're diving away from the enemy...and, if you do dive away, and the enemy disengages to attack the bombers, how long will it take you to get back in position?
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fubar57
General
Yep, I've only recently ventured into this realm of insanity though I've been a member of the site for 8 years. I know where the wings go
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
No Mr. P-39 Wizard, you don't keep your tanks, perhaps you didn't read it correctly so slower...
Never read where Mustangs got bounced and dove a way, they dropped tanks and turned into the attacker, fighter tactics 101.
Why do you insist that Mustangs were always bounced from above at over 500MPH? Many encounter reports, if you could be bothered to read them, have P-51s sighting and attacking LW A/C below them.
You also seem to think that the Germans knew exactly where the escorts were every time and then positioned themselves perfectly to bounce them from above.
Never read where Mustangs got bounced and dove a way, they dropped tanks and turned into the attacker, fighter tactics 101.
Why do you insist that Mustangs were always bounced from above at over 500MPH? Many encounter reports, if you could be bothered to read them, have P-51s sighting and attacking LW A/C below them.
You also seem to think that the Germans knew exactly where the escorts were every time and then positioned themselves perfectly to bounce them from above.
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
Pardon me, guess I read your post wrong, you said there were no encounter reports where Mustangs dropped their tanks and dove away, ever. I took that to mean they kept their tanks.
Amazing that no Mustangs ever dove away to escape an adversary who was above them or otherwise held the advantage. Seems odd.
How did you get from me that Mustangs were ALWAYS bounced from above? But then again, hard to bounce someone from below.
But honestly, the LW DID know exactly where the bombers and their escort were, they were on radar. Radar gave direction, altitude and speed. LW fighters had the advantage in that they knew where (and how high) you were flying, so they had the option of engaging when they were in an advantageous position above. If they didn't have time to get above, then they probably didn't attack.
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P39Expert,
FYI you tend to take things out of context. Slow down, when people disagree it's not an attack but a disagreement!
When attacked at close range, whether by an ambush or by a break in the line it's usually best to turn into the attack even today. If you are carrying jettisonable fuel tanks it's usually best to get rid of them lest you have a T. McGuire event and kill remove yourself rather than making the enemy earn it.
A bounce, or in today's speak "getting tapped", is attacking with the element of surprise or from a position of advantage. From beneath when it's a surprise is also from a position of advantage. So yes, you can be bounced from other than above.
Also you need to have a much closer look at German radar, coverage, displays, and command and control. I have a feeling it's not anything like what you imagine. I flew the Eagle from 1991-2008. It was sometime in 1995 that I encountered a ground or air based GCI radar that could pass decent altitude cuts. I repeat 1995. Why do you think the Luftwaffe sent guys up to shadow the bomber stream prior to the target area? It was to get their altitude and pass it on to the flak batteries. Do you think that the entire country of Germany had flak batteries? It did not, they put guns around things that would get attacked.
Reread my first sentence in this post and slow down.
Cheers,
Biff
DarrenW
Staff Sergeant
....except you made one glaringly obvious mistake. The speed shown for the P-39N is while using war emergency power settings, not military, which is what the Hellcat was flying at in this particular chart. Plus did you happen to notice that the speed of the P-39N rapidly drops below that of the Hellcat as it approaches strategic bomber altitudes, and keeps on plummeting further from there? So much for the argument that the Airacobra would make a great escort fighter in the ETO!!!!!
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/P-39/P-39N_level-speeds.jpg
DarrenW
Staff Sergeant
Well you told us not so long ago that the Luftwaffe was a beaten force by the Spring of '44 and provided no real threat from that point forward, so why would they EVER have to worry about something like that happening to them?!?!?
