Could the Allies defeat Germany only with air power?

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

Russia not Britain was always the main target, even before WW2 started. If Hitler could have some how avoided war with Britain, he would have.

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Be that as it may, the actual order of events was Britain then Russia.
Germany had to attack someone, that was the whole ethos of the Nazi culture, if not Russia ( in the thread context) then who was in line?
Any ideas Chris?
John

parsifal said:

But after Munich, Britiain was never going to allow the Germans carte blanche in Europe. Once Britain was in the war, it was an elephant in the room that the germans should not have ignored. In the beginning they gave Britain attention, alright, but when the first rush to shock and awe the brits didnt work, and Hitler reaslized he couldnt beat them easily, he turned to his ultimate goal, the Russians.

Russia was always his ideological goal, but there is a flip side. Hitler was an opportunist. even though he was philosophically wedded to an attack on the Russians, if he could somehow have been pursuaded that a further concentration on the british was worthwhile, he would have jumped at the opportunity. This is where the socalled "southern option" chimes in. If that option could have been shown as worthwhile, I have no hesitation in saying he would have gone for it. hitler was an intuitive leader.....he was not the dumbas* people often label him. He was an opportunitist that tended to follow gut instincts rather than carefully orhestrated strategy. to him, it was easier to tackle Russia (which he thought would eliminate british opposition anyway) than to return in 1941 for round 2 against the Brits

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I agree Michael. If Hitler had prevailed in other war theaters then it was only a matter of time before he attacked Great Britain.
I think Churchill knew this and that is why American involvement before that happened was critical.
John

Readie said:

Be that as it may, the actual order of events was Britain then Russia.
Germany had to attack someone, that was the whole ethos of the Nazi culture, if not Russia ( in the thread context) then who was in line?
Any ideas Chris?
John

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I personally see no other way other than to the east. That is what Hitler wanted from the beginning, and even made it clear before he came into power. Of course war with England was inevitable.

".... Hitler was an opportunist..." !!!! ***??? Warren Buffet is an opportunist, Bill Clinton is an opportunist, Our beloved PM, R.H. Stephen Harper is an opportunist, Parsifal.

Hitler was a pure out-and-out predator (of which opportunism is one - only one - powerful component). IMHO. IIFC.

Don't be to quick to shut out Finno2 "Hitler did not want a war against England, he wanted a war against Russia. He needed Oil rubber and aluminum. From 1939 the Germans fight the clock, well aware they did not have the resources for a long war. You mayask what had happend if he did not waste time to Battle of Britain and gone straight to Russia in Spring." [Spring, 1940]

It's a very good question. Please start a thread or I will - and you know what happens when I start a thread ... the DEMOCRACY thing.....

But this statement of Finno2 is very relative to ground we are all ready into - on this thread,

"... Hitler did not want a war against England, he wanted a war against Russia. He needed Oil rubber and aluminum."

It's the logic vs rights thing - Hitler did NOT want to fight a protracted war with the English - he'd been there done that as a runner-corporal in Signals.

Hitler wanted the English to participate - not in a good way - but nonetheless participate because he didn't hate the English - he had (before night offensive) some respect and he believed that daring bluff and a well-oiled military machine, might seduce the English into some kind of a conditional surrender - no route -- as he had done to the French. [Hitler hated the French]. [Wm Manchester in "House of Krupp" states that German hated of France traces to the 100 Years religious wars when Catholic France dabbled in the destinies of various (Protest) German states. I would appreciate a German member of this esteemed body, to comment -- if appropriate ]

Once again, the terms were so good to Mr. Hitler's mind -- so logical - a win-win -- no lasting humiliation for the English .... what could go wrong ......?

Compare Hitler in July 1940 'touring France' and softening up the English -- all very relaxed, civilized, European -- compare that to June 22, 1941. The wolves tore into the flanks to the great Soviet beast -- this wasn't war in Christendom -- this was war in the east -- against the Soviet Asian communist hordes.

Finno2 reminds us that there is always another perspective ....

Maltby's 1 rule of historical appreciation ... first walk in the subject's moccasins. In this case briefly, as Hitler.

If Hitler was building a 1,000 Year Reicht he couldn't afford to have everybody hate him could he ...? (Neither could Napoleon ).

Finno2 - start that thrread.

MM

vry persuasive and delicately put MM.......but I am still not convinced.......oh no

Look where you gotta look, my friend .... history isn't dry stats .... alone.

Hitler came out of prison - an author - and started running a political 'scam' of which HE was the figurehead .... and the desperate, disillusioned, hungry, proud, productive,defeated German nation, bought it. The rest you know ... but it is the character of the man ... how else can you explain the stupid things he did. Mussolini as an allie .... utterly useless - got Hitler into trouble everywhere - Barbarossa was delayed because of a Mussolini blunder in the Balkins.

But, beyond that,

" ... vry persuasive and delicately put MM.......but I am still not convinced.......oh no"


Sorry, Parsifal, I don't comprende. Must be an age thing ...

PM-me if it's important.

MM

Ratsel said:

How long could russia hold out w/o US planes/supplies in the Early part of Barbarosa? These are question that I'm curious to know.

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ask napolean he had a lot in common with the german's push into russia...and there was no LL available. the soviets could have held out longer than the german's could have sustained a push. its too big of a country to take like hitler and napoleon wanted.


Back to the subject....i leave for a week and this thread goes nuts! some good info. i would have to say that airpower would have helped lead to the end of the war which would have lasted longer but still ended in an unconditional surrender.

in this scenario...the ussr would at some time have to $#!T or get off the pot. they couldnt straddle the fence the entire war. the political pressure from the allies and the germans would sooner or later force them to pick sides. a good question would be what would happen if the ussr sided with the axis??



there were a couple deciding factors IMO. Hitler was who he was. he, himself, thwarted some good german campaigns by taking the issue personal and thus redirecting their thrust and focus. he bombed london because a raf bomber hit berlin....taking the focus off of the original targeted airfields and supply lines. he wanted stalingrad demolished because of its name, etc. and when he didnt take it personal he was just entered folly....not letting the 9th army retreat, etc. so i would have to say he would be prone to make the same style of decisions...and maybe even be tricked into them by the allies. PLUS his hard nose stance of fight to the last bullit....i dont see him throwing out an olive branch or wavering in his determination.

but the biggest factors i see were
1) the use of long range bombing with ESCORTS. the LW would sooner or later have beenn ground down. the time line would have been later but as i said earlier the american industrial might....AND the CW/UK industrial potential would have simply out lasted the germans. the UK/CW was a VERY large area with vast resources. LL could have been as simple as giving machinery to canada. they have just was complex and efficent transportation systems as the us and with the influx of machinery from the US and workers from throughout the CW they could have matched or exceded the us output. BUT neither would ever have been attacked..unlike the german the industrial complex which wouild have been constantly be under attack. any clean up or repairs demand man power that could be used fighting or making weapons, etc.

2) the ability to resupply. the allies had it the germans didnt. they lacked it by matching planes during the BoB, lost the ability to resupply Rommel in NA, but it was most prevalent in the russian campaign. the soviet weather complicated the issue and the german army was unprepared with uniforms, etc.
but they out ran their supply lines and were not able to adjust. the allies when pushing hard came close several times to making the same mistake but they had the red ball express and numerous air transports. most to the german transports ( and seasoned LW pilots ) were lost trying to supply stalingrad. so, i would have to say that this variable would still hold true in the current scenario.

michaelmaltby said:

Look where you gotta look, my friend .... history isn't dry stats .... alone.

Hitler came out of prison - an author - and started running a political 'scam' of which HE was the figurehead .... and the desperate, disillusioned, hungry, proud, productive,defeated German nation, bought it. The rest you know ... but it is the character of the man ... how else can you explain the stupid things he did. Mussolini as an allie .... utterly useless - got Hitler into trouble everywhere - Barbarossa was delayed because of a Mussolini blunder in the Balkins.

But, beyond that,

" ... vry persuasive and delicately put MM.......but I am still not convinced.......oh no"


Sorry, Parsifal, I don't comprende. Must be an age thing ...

PM-me if it's important.

MM

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Nothin important....just that IMO Hitler would have stomped on Britain given even half a chance, at any time. the only reason he wanted the british to survive was that he saw others benfitting more by its demise than Germany. Rather like a favourite pet dog, he would keep Britain as his pet, until it no longer suited him, until he tired of that pet, and then he would turn it into a wall hanging. Britain would have ended up like Vichy in many ways....the plaything of the Nazis, there to do the bidding of the Nazis and nought else.

If the brits had followed the collaborationist pathway, I have no doubt the RN would have eventually been called upon to transport the Heer to the New World for the final showdown with the USA. My thoughts....first to Jamaica then cuba, the panama canal then somewhere in the gulf Of Mexico. Not hard to visualise SS LAH strutting up Pensylvania Avenue.

michaelmaltby said:

Mussolini as an allie .... utterly useless - got Hitler into trouble everywhere - Barbarossa was delayed because of a Mussolini blunder in the Balkins.

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Now, if AH could have kept BM from getting in over his head.....
Hmmmmm.

"... like a favorite pet dog, he would keep Britain as his pet, until it no longer suited him, until he tired of that pet, and then he would turn it into a wall hanging. Britain would have ended up like Vichy in many ways....the plaything of the Nazis, there to do the bidding of the Nazis and nought else."

We don't disagree .... I said: "... what could go wrong?" Obviously, his judgement .... of the Magna Carta people.

"If the brits had followed the collaborationist pathway.."

THAT was not going to happen, not with THAT enemy, and not with that PM and Royal Family.

I didn't say Hitler was a smart statesman ... he was a con ..... all I'm stating is how he tried to play it. Russia was the big prize. Communism was the anti-christ.

Never forget those peoples of the Baltic Republics who had been 'annexed' in '40 and mass-deported in June '41 -- just before Barbarossa, ironically
When liberated by the Nazi, they didn't need to be reminded who their mortal enemies were ---- the Soviet Reds. !,000's of Balts and Estonians wore the German uniform with their nationality flashes - with pride and honor.

Hitler with designs on Amerika --- of course. Russia represented the vast riches of America, to the Nazi planners -- and the ultimate war was with industrial powerhouse, the USA.

The "prolonged war" that Hitler thought he wanted - was with America. With Soviet resources to back him, and Japan in the Pacific.

Finno speculates about war with Russia a year earlier ... can't be done ... Germany just doesn't have the industrial power or military strength ... and after Greece and Crete the Germans are starting to bleed -- and Barbarossa is still months off.

finno2 said:

You all forgetting the main thing , witch the Germans did not. Hitler did not want a war against England, he wanted a war against Russia. He needed Oil rubber and aliminium. When England decleared war against Germany the import was reduced to only 10%. From 1939 the Germans fight the clock, well aware they did not have the resourses for a long war. You may ask what had happend if he did not waiste time to Battle of Britain and gone stright to Russia in Spring.

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We'd have to go back a bit further finno. When the Germans invaded Poland they knew that a war with Britain was inevitable. If Hitler was going to attack just Russia he would have to avoid any conflict with Britain to give him the resources to beat the Red Army.
The Nazi's wasted a lot of resources fighting battles that were inconclusive instead of just going for Russia with everything they had.
John

On Sept 3rd 1939, Hitler was in war with France UK. Neither Romania nor Finland are his co-beligerents; UK is not engaged in Mediterranean. The Atlantic ocean is almost sealed for both his navy merchant fleet, the u-boots need to sail all along GB to enter the hunting zones. His armies are even more horse-drawn than in 1941. Why should he get into a war with another major power?

Most of the battles Germany was waging in 1939-40 were conclusive.

"... The Nazi's wasted a lot of resources fighting battles that were inconclusive instead of just going for Russia with everything they had.

I agree. In September 1939, Hitler had pulled off the annexation of Austria, reclaimed the Rhineland and the digestion of Czechoslovakia .... greatly increased his industrial base .... and just signed a treaty of non-aggression with his mortal enemy .... who was prepared to provide much needed resources by the trainload for the foreseeable future. What's the hurry .....

Stalin - on the other hand - had just decisively beaten Japan - and demonstrated that Communism in One County had worked.

In hindsight, Hitler was impatient, IMO.

MM

tomo pauk said:

Most of the battles Germany was waging in 1939-40 were conclusive.

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Hitler never really invaded ( conquered) all of France and the BoB was a 'defeat' for the LW.

Whatever his mad cap schemes were for the rest of Europe he threw his forces onto the 'Russian sword' with a defeat almost a given.Germany was not big enough to win.

John

Readie said:

We'd have to go back a bit further finno. When the Germans invaded Poland they knew that a war with Britain was inevitable. If Hitler was going to attack just Russia he would have to avoid any conflict with Britain to give him the resources to beat the Red Army.
The Nazi's wasted a lot of resources fighting battles that were inconclusive instead of just going for Russia with everything they had.
John

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Going through Poland pretty much secured that. I am sure that if Poland was not unfortunate enough to be stuck between Germany and Russia, Britain might very well have allowed Russia and Germany to duke it out. It possibly would have been a win win situation.

Readie said:

When the Germans invaded Poland they knew that a war with Britain was inevitable.

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michaelmaltby said:

In September 1939, Hitler had pulled off the annexation of Austria, reclaimed the Rhineland and the digestion of Czechoslovakia

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What if the Allies had not declared war when Poland was invaded?

Jenisch said:

I wrote the tittle wrong. It would be US and Britain figthing against Germany by themselfs. The question is if would be plausible for them to invade Europe using the air power to achive this objective.

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I am assuming Britain means the CW nations. The answer is yes. Allied manufacturing would continue to greatly out perform Germany and manpower is also in this arena. Eventually, all of this would overpower Germany. At the rate production and training was accelerating in the west, possibly a year or two delay in the war. Advanced weapons systems would not help because of the depletion of expertise, especially pilots.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

Going through Poland pretty much secured that. I am sure that if Poland was not unfortunate enough to be stuck between Germany and Russia, Britain might very well have allowed Russia and Germany to duke it out. It possibly would have been a win win situation.

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If, Poland was located elsewhere and it just became a Germany v Russia battle royal. I'm not sure what the outcome of that would have been Chris.
My own view is that there would have been another 'Poland' leading to the Anglo - Germanic clash.
The British would not have allowed Hitler to hold total power in Europe. That situation would pose too much of a threat.

John

davparlr said:

I am assuming Britain means the CW nations. The answer is yes. Allied manufacturing would continue to greatly out perform Germany and manpower is also in this arena. Eventually, all of this would overpower Germany. At the rate production and training was accelerating in the west, possibly a year or two delay in the war. Advanced weapons systems would not help because of the depletion of expertise, especially pilots.

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You are right.It boils down to numbers and the allies had more of everything.
John

Russia was always the aim of Hitler. He knew that when he invaded Poland, that the UK and others would declare but he had hoped that with the conquest of mainland Europe, he could come to terms with the British and avoid a two-front war. He decided to go after Russia when he became impatient with what was happening in the West.