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- #101
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Crossing is no problem. If the FAT morphine addicted MAN would have kept up aerial assults for a couple more weeks, Germany would have won the airwar over England.. History tells us that. Luckily for England he stopped when he did.
Yah yeah... please if your so kind as to prove that the RAF was on the verge of victory during the end of BoB.The level of self delusion and historical ignorance showed by this post is highly revealing.
It's really interesting to know what the Arabs would think about this. The Nazi megalomaniac trying to take their oil fields, the US and Britain helping them by fighting from a free world that allowed them to sell their oil. I doubt they would just gave their oil fields to the Germans.
"Verge of victory during the end of BoB"
Did I make any such claim? No.
Historically, the RAF won the BoB by surviving and denying the Luftwaffe control of the air over the Channel, preventing any change of Sealion occurring.
You are the one claiming that a crossing of the English Channel presents "no problem" for the German armed forces - despite all the Wehrmacht and Kriegsmarine objections to the scheme. Halder likened the Sealion plan to sticking one's hand in a meat grinder. von Runstead's objections were similar.
The onus of proof lies with you, not me.
Please, enlighten us as to how a naval force outnumbered 7:1 in destroyers, 8:1 in small craft, 2:1 in submarines, 11:1 in cruisers and 5:1 in battleships is going to satisfactorily protect the landing force for the initial 36 hour crossing and then for a further 10 days to get all landing forces across. This is against a Royal Navy which has already proven itself more than willing to seek out and engage the Kriegsmarine at almost all occasions. See HMS Glowworm
How was the Wehrmacht to supply itself, given that during the two available windows for Sealion, poor weather would have stimied re-supply efforts for at least two days out of the ten needed to transport the fleet and the English had wired most ports for destruction.
How is the Luftwaffe going to win with "aerial assults for a couple more weeks"? The front-line fighter and pilot strength of the RAF compared to the Luftwaffe increased from early September onwards. If anything, continuing the BoB would be more damaging for the Luftwaffe than the RAF, given the performance of the airforces in the September/October period.
Even me, the creator, are not taking this topic seriously anymore. The fact is that the Germans take the oil fields, and Uncle Joe attacks Europe and makes the so precious aquired Arab oil useless. Then the Allies devided Europe, or even Stalin takes everything. End of story.
As always you do under estimate the situation if this was the primary goal!
You are talking about 1940/41 and 5 Divisions!
If the LW is at italy with all her strengths and Rommel had 5 elite divisions then Bengasi, Tobruk and Malta are down at June 1941!
Please describe any scenario with sources that can stop Rommel and the LW to reach this goal!
With Tobruk there would be a good harbour for the Wehrmacht to force there troops to the suez canal.
Please describe with what troops and supply Archilenk will stopp Rommel with 5 elite divisions the described LW at Italy and North Africa and Malta and Toobruk at german hands to take Alexandria and the Suez Canal at autum 1941?
Different kind of fuel for ships,and it would remain in short supply no matter there was no war in the eastAfter that it is only a matter of time when german troops are at Saudi Arabian!
And don't forget there is no fuel at the war in the east, all fuel from Romania could get to the Mediterranean sea for the german troops, LW and the Italian Navy!
!Lol, and what they want to do against german stukas, He 111 torpedo bombers and later Fritz X'?
The way from Saudi Arabian to the suez canal is realy short and the LW will be present!
To be very very specific, it is much much much more possible then to invade the UDSSR and get to Baku and the OIL through the Kaukasus
'The onus of proof lies with you, not me.'
You called me stupid in an educated type of way (see post #102). So if I am, please show how the Luftwaffe wasn't on the verge of victory then?
I am willing to learn, but not willing to be called names. So please post.
The RAF was out of time by the end of the BoB. IF Goring would have continued the champain, The RAF would have been crushed. Thats my onus.
There were no agreements with the italians until the end of October 1940. until then, there is no possibility of any reinforcement into italy. It then took three months basically to develop the airfields and set up the supporting infrastructure to support 248 a/c of FKX. Even at that rate, German logistics were stretched. German and italian logistics in Africa were fully strched to support roughly 150 aircraft in the assaults on Tobruk.
Looking firstly at malta, there were only two specialist anti-shipping units in the LW of Korps size, at the beginning of 1941. by the end of 1941, after strenuous efforts and training there were 21/2, the half being schwarzes meer command for the Eastern Front. There were odds and sods around the occupied territories that might give some help. The rest of the LW was untrained for anti-shipping operations, and as was found in 1940, by the germans, only appropriately trained aircrews are of any use in anti-shipping operations. So, there is very little chance of full defeat of the RN, or indeed, any additional defeat beyond what they suffered historically. It is possible for general air force units to be used on anti-shipping ops, but they are not efficient, as the italians, the british and the germans found out at various times.
Obviously with time and training (about nine months additional training on average) additional formations of the LW could be retrained for anti ship operations, and airfields provided, but this takes you to the latter half of 1941, not the June deadline you are suggesting.
Malta, under any scenario is a difficult nut for the Axis to crack....possible but not easy. And as barnett points out in "Engage the enmy more closely", it is not the complete answer to Axis logistic difficulties. Hercules Mark I was originally planned no earlier than September 1941 from memory, the second plan would have seen airdrops in July 1942. there were many months of delay between the time of orders being issued, and the plan actually being carried out.
Now, putting 5 divs into the theatre is absolutely no gurantee that Tobruk would be taken either. The most likley involvement of the germans would be via Greece and Yugoslavia, by ealry involvement, and no deployment against the Vichy, or alternatively cleaning the Lavant Vichy by forces in the East (after iraq). under those circumstances, the 5 divs which replace the 2 divs actually deployed, instead of being faced by one Aus Div in Tobruk, would be faced by two lus a full armoured Brigade, plus an additional Div in reserve. Since tyhe germans would need about 2 divs to face the frontier, they would have 3 divs, less well supplied than Rommel was, against 2.5 fresh and dug in troops in Tobruk. If they pour more assets into the TO, roughly 150 a/c equals the needs of a Div, so, say you wanted to pour in 450 aircraft into your NA scenario, you have reduced your frontline troop strengths to about 3 divs. Thats now 1.5 divs plus 450 a/c against 2.5 divs dig in. Still not good for the germans.
Keep dreaming friend, keep dreaming
Two dates. The Day before 18.12.1940 Mid 10.1941.When, exactly, was the Luftwaffe on the "verge of victory" during the Battle of Britain?
Read the Bari one if you havn't. That would be akin to a US carrier fleet in the Med with NO russians to worry about.