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Not obeying direct orders was only 'permitted' if the endresult was an undeniable victory.
As DonL said, a Colonel General should have the nuts to make a decision and accept the consequences. He owes that to his soldiers.
I have my doubts, that the retreat from Rommel at El Alamein was an undeniable victory from the viewpoint of Hitler!
That's nearly the same situation and I very hardly believe that all soldiers that would got out of the box (6th Army) would have had the viewpoint of undeniable victory, the same as the soldiers of the Panzerarmee Africa after El Alamein.
El Alamein was most certainly no victory but neither was Dunkirk but it could be sold to the general public as a magical escape performed by the ever popular escape artist Erwin Rommel.
In other words a glorious victory. You can rest assured that it would have gone in the historybooks as a victory if Nazi Germany had won the war.
Goering's assesment of the 6th army's needs may or may not have followed the manual,I don't know. He is the sort of man who would have made the calculation fit whatever suited him. Zeitzler implies that Goering's assessment was different to the army officers present,that he knew better.
His assessment of Luftwaffe capabilities was laughable.
Richthofen's frustration with the Luftwaffe leadership in Berlin was exactly because of these sort of calculations. They sat down worked out that he had x,y or z Gruppen,that they could carry so much materiel and the operation was doable.
Richthofen,other Luftwaffe officers and even Army officers who were at the sharp end knew this was utter nonsense.
I've already given an idea of the sort of operational ready rates that the various aircraft of Luftflotte 4 were achieving. It was these sort of facts,along with the weather,vulnerability of the transports,lack of trained crews,lack of spares, eventually a lack of a landing ground in the pocket or an airfield within 350Km of Stalingrad, amongst many others, that were ignored by men like Goering and Jeschonnek doing there back of an envelope calculations back in Berlin.
That's why Richthofen and many others said it was not an achievable task and continued to argue for alternatives,even whilst they did what they were ordered to do. History has proved them right. At least they tried.
Cheers
Steve
El Alamein was most certainly no victory but neither was Dunkirk but it could be sold to the general public as a magical escape performed by the ever popular escape artist Erwin Rommel.
In other words a glorious victory. You can rest assured that it would have gone in the historybooks as a victory if Nazi Germany had won the war.
Even before the encirclement the supply situation of 6th A was precarious. Weather and soviet air and partisan attacks on the only rail link to Stalingrad had had their effects. So even if Paulus would have tried to break out that might well have ended to disaster, stopped on open steppe the 6th A could not have been able to held out long.
On 6th A forces, 2 Inf.Divs (Mot) were OK, (29th and 60th ?), they had rested and re-equipped for an attack to Baku (so out of touch was the German strategic planning already) but the 3 PzDivs were rather poor state even before the beginning of the Soviet attack, and during it 14th Pz lost most/much of its arty to Russian cavalry etc and their fuel situation was precarious.
Manstein:
Both your claims are wrong.
Manstein wasn't involved between 20-25 Nevomber at Stalingrad, he took command of the Heeresgruppe Don at 26 November.
His first radio to Paulus was: We will come to get get you out, make praparation that the Army can stroke south!
After that he criticised General Weichs hard for his orders (see above) to the 29 ID mot. at the 21 November!
At 19 December Manstein had done the very specific order to Paulus to make preparation that Wintergewitter (shake hands with Hoth) and Donnerschlag (break out of the 6th Army) can go hand in hand. He couldn't order Donnerschlag without Hitler but his plan was that Hitler would be overtaken by events.
At 19 December General Schulz Ia Heeresgruppe Don radioed again to General Schmidt Ia 6th Army to force Wintergewitter as soon as possible (without waiting of Hoth to reach the Businowka) with the preparation that Donneschlag can go hand in hand with Wintergewitter!
That was all what Manstein could do with his power, without to make a kind of suicide! He wanted absolutley the break out of the 6th Army!
What is a correct claim, that Manstein wanted at January 1943 that the 6th Army was fighting as long as possible to bind several soviet army's, but he wanted always the brake out of the 6th Army as long as it was possible (till 21-22 December)!
Manstein believed he could break into the encirclement with a moderate committment of forces. He grossly under-estimated the new abilities of the red army, and over-estimated the abilities of the heer to alter the situation.
Very wrong! That was alone Hitler's decission. Manstein wanted as much units as possible! Hitler denied more units from France, only the 6th Pz. Division and only Manstein personal intervention was helpfull to get the 17.Pz Div. later, after Hitler had denied this unit for days!
Which timeline? November or December?
Between 20-25 November the army was intact with food, fuel and munition for six days and the way to Nischne Tschirskaja was absolutely possible.
The 29 ID mot. was 100% fresh with 54 tanks, one whole battalion, and had made "mincemeat" out of the 57th soviet army at 20 November.
You are entitled to your opinion, however, I would point out that your statements are unsubstantiated opinion at this stage. As I have read material from good sources that back up the opinions I have expressed I will defer to those sources in preference to your unsubstantiated claims.
As I wrote, 29th was re-equipped [as was 16th, not 60th as I wrote errously in my earlier message) and what happened during the battle between 29th and 57th depends totally are you reading the German or Soviet story of that battle. Soviet side disagree with that "mincemeat". The 3 PzDivs had worth of a couple coys of modern tanks (Pz III lg, III 75, IV kz and IV lg) each.
Also, claiming that military units on the Eastern Front were at 100% full strength is very unuaual. Any movement, any combat was bound to result in losses. In the advance from Minsk to Smolensk, apart from combat losses AGC suffered breakdown rates of up to 50% in its tank formations. Similar breakdown rates were suffered by the Motorized units. In the over-extended environment of Stalingrad, it is simply implausible that ANY unit however fresh would be at completely full strength. I have the unit history of the 29th at home will check its status as at 20 November and get back to you.
That might be counter productive. You would need additional construction units to build and maintain all weather airfields. More units to supply.
I realy don't know to what are you refering!!!!!!!!!
I haven't said with one word. that the 6th Army had only suffered 10000 casualties, I have said, that at the day of 23 november were 10000 casualties in the box, which must be transported at a break out! That was my statement!
Oh I think my statements are very substantiated and very well researched with lot of primary sources from the german units and documents from the Heeresgruppe Don!!