Crucial points of the Battle of Britain?

[Njaco]

This is a bit of a myth. The first significant attack on London came on the 15th August when the Luftwaffe mounted a planned attack on an airfield in Croydon (they hit Croydon airport rather than Kenley, but both were in Croydon). 60 civilians were killed when bombs hit civilian buildings outside the airfield.

The next day the Luftwaffe attacked more targets in London, killing 15 civilians in Wimbledon.

Going by memory, these areas weren't London proper AT THAT TIME as they might be now. I'm not very good on locales in and around London. But there were some areas hit that are now a part of London.

Several years ago I did this thread which has the best numbers that I could produce. All sources are listed at the front....

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/day-battle-britain-25360.html

 

[vikingBerserker]

Excellent info Chris!

 

[stona]

If the Luftwaffe were having a significant impact on RAF operations I'd have expected to see them inflicting increasing damage on RAF bases, as the RAF became unable to defend them properly. The statistics don't show that.

The other area I'd expect to see an effect is in serviceability rates. If the airfields were being heavily damaged, it should have made it harder to repair planes after combat, and decrease the serviceability rate. Air Commodore Peter Dye, from the RAF Historical Branch, gave 3 figures for Fighter Command serviceability rates:


Certainly the Luftwaffe did some damage to the RAF. But the statistics do not suggest it was particularly significant.

Aircraft availability/serviceability was never a problem. Operational pilots was a crucial shortage at the beginning of September. Operational aircraft per squadron might have been 13-15 on average (still below establishment) but operational pilots even in 11 Group fell as low as 15 (establishment 26). 20 squadrons were 'C' class with 16 of their pilots, the vast majority, non-operational.

Damage to sector airfields on occasion left Park, in his own words, flying little more than his desk.

Airfields can be and were quickly repaired, only a few were rendered non-operational for any significant period of time.

On 7th September, just before the stabilisation system was introduced, Dowding told Evill that Fighter Command was 'going downhill' due to the losses being inflicted upon it. Aeroplanes, telephone lines, hangars etc could all be replaced and surprisingly quickly. Grass fields can be filled, rolled and be operational again in hours. One of the things Dowding demanded was more repair crews.
Pilots on the other hand, and particularly combat ready leaders, could not be so easily replaced. This was the crucial shortage in September 1940 for the RAF just as it would be for the Luftwaffe a few years later. It was this shortage that had both Park and Dowding so worried at the beginning of September, though Park was also concerned about the serious damage caused to 11 Groups infrastructure. It would not be correct to say that they were on the verge of defeat but they were seriously considering how best to manage their diminishing resources and trying to impress the gravity of the situation on their superiors..
By coincidence it was at this very point (almost to the hour) that the Luftwaffe shifted the weight of its attacks away from Fighter Command and onto London. This was therefore, for Park, the man controlling the day to day battle in the South of England, both a turning point and a relief of the pressure exerted on his resources. He said it, not me.

Cheers

Steve

 

[redcoat]

On 7th September, just before the stabilisation system was introduced, Dowding told Evill that Fighter Command was 'going downhill' due to the losses being inflicted upon it.

Indeed, but Evill told him at the same conference that even if the casualty rate remained at the level of the last few weeks Fighter Command would still have 725 operational Spitfires and Hurricanes ready to take to the sky's in the third week of September, the last week judged suitable for any German invasion

Pilots on the other hand, and particularly combat ready leaders, could not be so easily replaced. This was the crucial shortage in September 1940 for the RAF just as it would be for the Luftwaffe a few years later.

It was already a problem at the beginning of September 1940, the establishment of a Gruppe was supposed to be around 35-40 but the average had fallen to 20 in bomber units and 18 in Bf 109 units.

 

[pbehn]

Indeed, but Evill told him at the same conference that even if the casualty rate remained at the level of the last few weeks Fighter Command would still have 725 operational Spitfires and Hurricanes ready to take to the sky's in the third week of September, the last week judged suitable for any German invasionIt was already a problem at the beginning of September 1940, the establishment of a Gruppe was supposed to be around 35-40 but the average had fallen to 20 in bomber units and 18 in Bf 109 units.

That was the point I was trying to make. Yes the RAF were under pressure and 11 group under severe pressure but the Luftwaffe were in a worse position relative to the start. I was never in the military but always morale is considered important, the accounts I have read from the BoB generally state that the RAF didnt consider they were near to defeat and the LW progressively didnt feel they could win.

In terms of the air war Spitfires and Hurricanes were vitally important, in terms of an invasion the RAF had lots of aircraft that could straffe and bomb beaches and landing craft . For an invasion the LW needed to have eliminated all single engined fighters from the south coast, if they didnt then how could they support a landing?

 

[vikingBerserker]

Aircraft availability/serviceability was never a problem.

I am not so sure of that, I remember reading about Churchill visiting an airbase during an attack and he inquired about the reserve aircraft and being told there were none.

 

[pbehn]

I am not so sure of that, I remember reading about Churchill visiting an airbase during an attack and he inquired about the reserve aircraft and being told there were none.

That wasn't an Airbase I believe it was the centre of the control for the BOB, at the height of the battle he could see all squadrons were airborne and enquired about reserves, Park was there and maybe Dowding. There were no reserves. But thet is for the operational situation in 11 group I believe. The situation was difficult for 11 group at thet time but because of the Command and control sytem Dowding and others had constructed the British political leader could see in real time what was happening, Hermann and Adolph just got second hand news. I think it was the bunker at RAF UXBridge but I am sure others can correct that.

for Brit readers I dont read the daily mail it just came up in the search ha ha
RAF bunker that helped Battle of Britain: Operation rooms prevented Nazi invasion | Mail Online

 

[vikingBerserker]

I believe you are correct on that.

 

[pbehn]

I believe you are correct on that.

I have read that it was that visit that inspired the "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few" speech, in any case the situation was dire, but at least the British (my) political leader could see it first hand. Maybe the first time in modern history that a leader in politics was there looking at a battle of international importance in real time.

 

[vikingBerserker]

I will admit, that was the finest military speech I have ever heard.

 

[pbehn]

I will admit, that was the finest military speech I have ever heard.

I must admit I liked Patton at the start of "lust for Glory" No bastard ever won a war my dying for his country he won it by making some other poor dumb bastard die for their country"

From Churchill his "never in the field" speech was iconic but as a nephew of a veteran of Bomber Command this is my favourite.

We ask no favours of the enemy. We seek from them no compunction. On the contrary, if tonight our people were asked to cast their vote whether a convention should be entered into to stop the bombing of cities, the overwhelming majority would cry, "No, we will mete out to them the measure, and more than the measure, that they have meted out to us." The people with one voice would say: "You have committed every crime under the sun. Where you have been the least resisted there you have been the most brutal. It was you who began the indiscriminate bombing. We will have no truce or parley with you, or the grisly gang who work your wicked will. You do your worst - and we will do our best." Perhaps it may be our turn soon; perhaps it may be our turn now.

For my uncle it was about meting out to them the measure and more than the measure" little to do with stragegy and tackticks just cold blooded revenge, but later in the speech it is clear not against the German people but against the Regime that controlled them, considering the emotion at the time his words were remarkably measured and with a view to the future when Europe and Germany were free from Naziism

We live in a terrible epoch of the human story, but we believe there is a broad and sure justice running through its theme. It is time that the enemy should be made to suffer in their own homelands something of the torment they have let loose upon their neighbours and upon the world. We believe it to be in our power to keep this process going, on a steadily rising tide, month after month, year after year, until they are either extirpated by us or, better still, torn to pieces by their own people.


sorry off topic

 

[parsifal]

this one


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0t-RqjMH-A

But i like this one as well


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzZZyJEiUgw


or his blood sweat and toil speech


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TlkN-dcDCk

Churchill was a brilliant orator and able o reach out to people in a way no one has been able to match, except perhaps herr Hitler, albeit in a different way

its interesting to compare with Stalins November "appeal to mother Russia" speech


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IGbjPqFFvA


This one of Hitlers speeches by comparison.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV9kyocogKo

As to which was the most inspiring, well thats a matter of opinion. I know which reaches out and touches my soul the most.

 

[redcoat]

I am not so sure of that, I remember reading about Churchill visiting an airbase during an attack and he inquired about the reserve aircraft and being told there were none.

Churchill was asking about operational units being held in reserve, not aircraft held in reserve, and when Park said "none" he was only referring to units within 11 Group, not the whole of Fighter Command. In other groups a number of Squadrons saw no action at all on this day.

 

[redcoat]

I will admit, that was the finest military speech I have ever heard.

During the war radio broadcasters were not allowed to record within the House Of Commons.
Churchill's speech's "Blood, Sweat and Tears" and "The Few", or any of Churchill speeches from the House Of Commons were never heard during the war, snippets were read out by BBC staff on the radio, and reported in the press, but the recordings we hear were made post war.

 

[pbehn]

During the war radio broadcasters were not allowed to record within the House Of Commons.
Churchill's speech's "Blood, Sweat and Tears" and "The Few", or any of Churchill speeches from the House Of Commons were never heard during the war, snippets were read out by BBC staff on the radio, and reported in the press, but the recordings we hear were made post war.

A surprising number of people claim to have heard them at the time even though it was impossible. The memory can play tricks.

 

[Hop]

Churchill did visit the BBC to record some of his speeches during the war. For example, on the 18 June he gave the "finest hour" speech to the House of Commons. That evening he went to the BBC to record it for broadcast. The government information minister at the time wrote in his diary how he had to "bully" Churchill to do it.

 

[stona]

Churchill was asking about operational units being held in reserve, not aircraft held in reserve, and when Park said "none" he was only referring to units within 11 Group, not the whole of Fighter Command. In other groups a number of Squadrons saw no action at all on this day.

This was at the underground bunker at RAF Uxbridge on 15th September 1940. Park was present for this (and other VIP visits) as the visitors were officially his guests. Dowding was not there, Park was the AOC 11 Group, Dowding commanded Fighter Command.

You are quite correct to say that during this visit 11 Group committed all of its squadrons to the fray and had no reserves. This was not the only time this happened but was the only time Churchill saw it happen for himself.
Knowing when and where to make a maximum commitment of your forces is something that only the best commanders get correct. In this case, and others, Park got it absolutely right.

Cheers

Steve

 

[pbehn]

This was at the underground bunker at RAF Uxbridge on 15th September 1940. Park was present for this (and other VIP visits) as the visitors were officially his guests. Dowding was not there, Park was the AOC 11 Group, Dowding commanded Fighter Command.

You are quite correct to say that during this visit 11 Group committed all of its squadrons to the fray and had no reserves. This was not the only time this happened but was the only time Churchill saw it happen for himself.
Knowing when and where to make a maximum commitment of your forces is something that only the best commanders get correct. In this case, and others, Park got it absolutely right.

Cheers

Steve

This was not the first time Churchill had enquired about "reserves" on a visit to France during the battle of France he equired about the masse de manouveur" and was told there wasnt any.

 

[Njaco]

I have read that it was that visit that inspired the "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few" speech, in any case the situation was dire, but at least the British (my) political leader could see it first hand. Maybe the first time in modern history that a leader in politics was there looking at a battle of international importance in real time.

I believe that the "Never So Few" speech occurred on Aug 20 while the aircraft in reserve comment was made on Sept 15 or thereabouts.

 

[pbehn]

I believe that the "Never So Few" speech occurred on Aug 20 while the aircraft in reserve comment was made on Sept 15 or thereabouts.

True ....from wiki

Never was so much owed by so many to so few was a wartime speech made by the British Prime Minister Winston Churchill on 20 August 1940. The name stems from the specific line in the speech, Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few, referring to the ongoing efforts of the Royal Air Force pilots who were at the time fighting the Battle of Britain, the pivotal air battle with the German Luftwaffe with Britain expecting a German invasion. The speech also refers to the aerial bombing campaign by RAF Bomber Command, although the speech is usually taken to only refer to Fighter Command. With the Battle of Britain won a few months later and German plans postponed, the Allied airmen of the battle ultimately became known as "The Few".

Contents

1 Background
2 Legacy
3 Excerpts
4 References
5 Source
6 External links

Background

Churchill apparently first used his famous words upon his exit from the Battle of Britain Bunker at RAF Uxbridge on 16 August when visiting the No. 11 Group RAF Operations Room during a day of battle. Afterwards, Churchill told Major General Hastings Ismay 'Don't speak to me, I have never been so moved'.[1] After several minutes of silence he said 'Never in the field of human conflict has so much been owed by so many to so few.' The sentence would form the basis of his speech to the House of Commons on 20 August.[2]

However, in 1954 "Pug" Ismay related an anecdote to publisher Rupert Hart-Davis; when Churchill and Ismay were:

travelling together in a car, in which Winston rehearsed the speech he was to give in the House of Commons on 20 August 1940 after the Battle of Britain. When he came to the famous sentence, 'Never in the history of mankind have so many owed so much to so few', Ismay said 'What about Jesus and his disciples?' 'Good old Pug,' said Winston, who immediately changed the wording to 'Never in the field of human conflict ....'.[3]

The speech was given as the United Kingdom prepared for the expected German invasion. In it, Churchill tried to inspire his countrymen by pointing out that although the last several months had been a series of monumental defeats for the Allies, their situation was now much better. Churchill's argument was in fact correct; shortly thereafter the British won the battle – the first significant defeat for the hitherto unstoppable Wehrmacht.

This speech was a great inspiration to the embattled United Kingdom during what was probably the most dangerous phase (for Britain) of the entire war. Together with the three famous speeches that he gave during the period of the Battle of France (the "Blood, toil, tears, and sweat" speech of 13 May, the "We shall fight on the beaches" speech of 4 June, and the "This was their finest hour" speech of 18 June) they form his most stirring rhetoric.

At the end of the speech, he introduced the first phase of the growing strategic alliance with the United States, and referred to the coming agreement for establishing US bases on various British territories.