daisy cutters

Discussion in 'Weapons Systems Tech.' started by tyrodtom, Sep 10, 2010.

  1. tyrodtom

    tyrodtom Well-Known Member

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    #1 tyrodtom, Sep 10, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2010
    I remember from Vietnam the air force would put pipes extensions on the front of some 250-500- and 750 lb bombs, it had a the forward fuse on it, which would be a zero delay fuse. The idea was for the bomb to go off above the ground, much cheaper than doing the same thing with a radar ranging fuse. We called them daisy cutters.

    On some drawings of a Stuka I notice some bombs that look similiar, in German it's labeled " dienartstab" . Translation please.
    Looks like we copied another German weapons idea.
     
  2. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    A pic from my archiv's

    check out what is under the right wing

    from StG 77 in the Ost.

    E ~
     

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  3. vikingBerserker

    vikingBerserker Well-Known Member

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    Very interesting, I'd seen them before but never really thought what they were for. Thanks Eric!
     
  4. BombTaxi

    BombTaxi Active Member

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    Presumably this was to give an airburst effect against soft targets?
     
  5. Kingscoy

    Kingscoy Member

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    Hi,
    My German is pretty good but Dienartstab doesn't ring a bell. The word stab in this means rod or pipe and looking at this threat would make sense. I guess the German word Dienartstab would suggest the type of fuse.

    Cheers,
    Sander
     
  6. BikerBabe

    BikerBabe Active Member

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    That sounds similar to the little british invention called the proximity fuse, which was useful for both ground and aerial targets.
     
  7. Kingscoy

    Kingscoy Member

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    #7 Kingscoy, Sep 11, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2010
    Did some reading and asking around. The rod(fuze) is named after a German Stuka pilot Oscar Dinort and is indeed a proximity fuze. He had some part in the development of aerial bombs in the 1930's The German code for this type of ammunition was SD 50 through SD 500 Tel. for telescopic.

    The name Dinort or Dienart was I'm sure the same person.

    These types of fuzes....then being wooden rods, were used as early as WW1.

    Cheers,
    Sander
     
  8. BombTaxi

    BombTaxi Active Member

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    Not as such, the proximity fuse, or VT as it was known in the US, was essentially a radar fuse that detonated when closer than a given distance to any object providing a radar return. The 'daisy-cutter' is an entirely mechanical device which would make abomb explode a distance above the ground equal to the length of the device. As I say, I presume this was done to create an airburst effect against troops and soft vehicles, significantly increasing the lethal radius of the weapon - otherwise much of the blast would have been absorbed by the ground.
     
  9. Kingscoy

    Kingscoy Member

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    #9 Kingscoy, Sep 11, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2010
    You're absolutley right!
    In a way this would be a mechanical near surface burst... as you say for soft skin vehicels and infantry in the open. In the article I read it was mentioned that the Luftwaffe experimented with almost 2 meter long rods. These bombs had to be carried horizontal due this rod and were not used in the, for example, He 111 as it had vertical storage racks.

    Cheers,
    Sander
     
  10. tyrodtom

    tyrodtom Well-Known Member

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    I have heard of a daisy cutter extension being up to 6 ft long, but the longest I ever saw was about 3 feet.
    The biggest advantage of them was a daisy cutter got some of the same effect as a Vt fuse at a fraction of the cost.
     
  11. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    back to the Ju 87 pic I posted this was an anti-personnel use and to balst off MT's and the trucks carrying the triple flak so dangerous to low flying LW ground attack crates. the bomb/rods were ugly effective used till wars end along with the single,e bomb carrier and the multi bomb-lets-butterflys
     
  12. tyrodtom

    tyrodtom Well-Known Member

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    I'm famaliar with the USA bombs from the Vietnam era and WW2, they had fuses in the front and rear. The German bombs appear to have no forward fuse. And for some aircraft they couldn't have a forward fuse because they hung nose up in the bomb racks, by a lug on the nose. Do they have a inertia fuse in the rear or center ? Hoe were they safetied?
     
  13. VALENGO

    VALENGO Member

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    #13 VALENGO, Sep 20, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2010
    About the denomination, the word "art" is inside "Dien art stab", art means "type". "Dien" could be an abbreviation (no clue of what word). Another posibility is that Dienart be a last name of someone who designed the fuse.
    Edit: after post this I`ve just seen that another member has explained the meaning (I made it once again!).
     
  14. blu-97

    blu-97 New Member

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    #14 blu-97, Sep 20, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2010
    It is indeed a "dinort stabe" called after the infentor Oskar Dinort how was a pilot how also flow stukas.
    There where 3 oficial types, the din st 70 for 50 and 70 kg bombs and had a lenght of 600mm, the din st 250 for 250 kg bombs with a lenght of 410mm and the din st 500 for 500 kg bombs and lenght of 410mm.
     

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  15. timshatz

    timshatz Active Member

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    The rod extension, presumable the Daisy Cutter, was pretty common in a lot of air forces around WW2. It was an antipersonel, Anti-vehicle (including airplanes on the ground) weapon. Very useful if you were using them on Airfields and Soft Targets, it blew shrapnel all over the place. I think, but am not certain, that the 20th Air Force used them on the end of Para Frags. Nasty little bit of equipment if they did.

    I think the Daisy Cutter of Vietnam may suffer from confusing nomenclatures. There was one that was used to clear LZs in the jungle. But I think that was a FAE (fuel air explosives). Idea was you dropped on in the jungle and it detonated a few feet off the ground and blew a hole big enough to drop helicopters into. There was also a 2000lb Anti-Personel bomb with extensions called a Daisy Cutter. I guess it was a somewhat generic description.

    Lastly, the VT fuse was never called a Daisy Cutter that I've ever heard of, even though the results were somewhat similar. If it was, the name was probably slang.
     
  16. looney

    looney Member

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    M14?? that is a strange thread size.. better would be M12 or M16
     
  17. BombTaxi

    BombTaxi Active Member

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    Here's an article on the BLU-82 Daisy Cutter used in Vietnam

    BLU-82 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    As already posted, it was designed as an area clearance weapon for creating instant LZs, but was also used in Vietnam and Afghanistan as an AP weapon for it's shock and awe value and massive kill zone. It was not an FAE device, but used and ammonia-based GSX slurry as an explosive. It has now been replaced i US service by the MOAB, which has a similar effect but is FAE based. Interestingly, BLU-82 did have a 38 inch (approx 3ft/1m) mechanical fuse extender very similar to the German ones we are discussing. This was solely intended to prevent the creation of a crater.
     
  18. timshatz

    timshatz Active Member

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    Learn something new every day.
     
  19. mikewint

    mikewint Well-Known Member

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    I have never seen these used to clear an LZ but we did test these old USAF surplus. 10,000 bombs from WWII. they cleared jungle but the helos could never fly, aim, and drop with the required accuracy so were never used for that purpose to my knowledge
     

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  20. c1951

    c1951 New Member

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    In Britain Vickers patented the daisy cutter. The designer was Mr Hezeltine. The idea was to give the weapon the maximum amount of blast above ground before burrowing into the ground. They were first used by P40's in the desert. They were used by 112 Squadron. Then they were used by Corsairs of the RNZAF against the Japanese in Bouganville. Unfortunately the Luftwaffe used them first, they should get the credit for it.
    In Vietnam they were used to clear the jungle for helicopters. Redundant heavy bombs had the rod placed on them then the whole lot was placed on a trolley and pushed out the back of a C130. I have photographs of it happening. The legend was the heavy bombs were old RAF Tallboys left over from the war. The RAF had a store of them in Okinawa, they were modified in 1950 as the VB-13 Tarzan but thats another story.
    The MOAB used by the USAF is a descendant of these early rod bombs
     
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