Day of Remembrance for Victims of Katyn Massacre

[Greg Boeser]

Oddly enough, the Pope, & Stalin, each other sworn enemies, both did deals with Hitler,
after he'd impressed them with his doings..
(The Pope by anti-Jewish/Communist measures, & Stalin's purges being inspired by Nazi 'night of the long knives')

Hitler died 'in *good grace' with the RC Church, if not with **Stalin,
- who reckoned that J.Edgar Hoover had done a deal with Hitler, too..

That Stalin sardonically reclaimed the bloody soil of 'Holy Mother Russia' from the Papist Poles,
while ethnic-cleansing the Lutheran Prussians out of their lands to hand to the Poles,
( so long as they were kept in order by his 'Jew-Bolshevist ***Commissars') , is yet another irony.

*Dying 'in good grace' - means that you have a sure place in 'Heaven' - according to RC dogma.

**Stalin did not accept Hitler died in the bunker, & suspected that via the FBI/OSS - he'd escaped with his life,
- just as the US did an even more blatant deal with Hirohito, while still claiming his 'unconditional surrender'..
- to date, no certain proof has contradicted ol' Joe, such as DNA tests of putative Hitler bone samples.

***Who continued to cruelly persecute those returnee Poles who'd fought with the West, as 'enemies of the State'.

Some interesting theories on what the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope did/did not do during WW2.
As far as I know, Hitler died unrepentant and without benefit of last rites, so can't see how he died in the good graces of the Church, though we pray for the souls of all sinners, trusting their souls to the mercy of God.
The Pope's "deal" with Hitler, the Concordat, if that is what you are referring, was an attempt to guarantee the legal status of the Catholic Church in Germany following Hitler's ascension to power. Hitler honored it as well as the Non-aggression Pact with Stalin. Meanwhile, the protestant churches of Germany were nationalized under a Reichsbischof and pretty much toed the Party line, unless you wanted a quick trip to that wonderful spa for clergy, Buchenwald. The Pope was under no illusions about what the Nazis intended for the Catholic Church once they consolidated their grip on Europe. He tried to balance protecting the Church from total destruction by the Nazis and Fascists with defending the souls under the boot of oppression. Thousands of Jews and other enemies of the Nazis, including allied airmen, were smuggled out of occupied Europe through networks run by the Church. His contemporaries thought he did a good job in a tough position, later detractors, egged on by Soviet misinformation, judged against a different standard.

 

[MIflyer]

A friend of mine was in the Polish Army in WWII. He was wounded on the first day of the war. The Germans captured him and he was sent to a POW camp. He escaped twice and was recaptured the first time. The 2nd time was late in the war and he made it to the US Army.

He said that when the Germans moved into the Katyn Forest area that they found the massacre site and got Polish Army doctors to examine the remains and confirm that the killings had occurred before the Germans got there. That was known in WWII.

Note that the invasion of a Poland was essentially a simultaneous invasion by both German and Soviet forces in Sept 1939 and they divided up the country. The Soviets told the Poles they were moving in from the East to help defend the country, but clearly they had planned a joint invasion with the Germans from the beginning.

 

[J.A.W.]

Some interesting theories on what the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope did/did not do during WW2.
As far as I know, Hitler died unrepentant and without benefit of last rites, so can't see how he died in the good graces of the Church, though we pray for the souls of all sinners, trusting their souls to the mercy of God.
The Pope's "deal" with Hitler, the Concordat, if that is what you are referring, was an attempt to guarantee the legal status of the Catholic Church in Germany following Hitler's ascension to power. Hitler honored it as well as the Non-aggression Pact with Stalin. Meanwhile, the protestant churches of Germany were nationalized under a Reichsbischof and pretty much toed the Party line, unless you wanted a quick trip to that wonderful spa for clergy, Buchenwald. The Pope was under no illusions about what the Nazis intended for the Catholic Church once they consolidated their grip on Europe. He tried to balance protecting the Church from total destruction by the Nazis and Fascists with defending the souls under the boot of oppression. Thousands of Jews and other enemies of the Nazis, including allied airmen, were smuggled out of occupied Europe through networks run by the Church. His contemporaries thought he did a good job in a tough position, later detractors, egged on by Soviet misinformation, judged against a different standard.

You post reads as if it was written by the Vatican propaganda dept, rather than via examination of their archives..

The Papal deal with Hitler went far deeper, & that evasion network you note - was also well utilized by ex-Nazis
post-war, many of whom were on widely circulated wanted lists as fugitive war-criminals..

AFAIR, there was a plan by radical SS/SD elements to 'liquidate' the Pope & blame Communists,
during the confusion attending the Italian-Allied armistice in `43, - but Hitler vetoed the deal..

 

[GrauGeist]

The plan to carve up the nation of Poland had old roots.
I am descended from Prussian ancestry and as a child, I recall occasional sentiment (and not very nice) about how Poland's borders were restructured after WWI.
WWII saw quite a bit of old grudges played out, like in the case of Slovakia, Russia and Germany turning on Poland for past grievances.
But the invasion of Poland by all belligerents and how her people were treated was inexcusable - what the Russians did - both at Katyn and later, sitting on their ass while the Poles fought valiantly against the Germans in Warsaw - is absolutely shameful.

 

[GrauGeist]

"Stalin's purges being inspired by Nazi 'night of the long knives'"

Actually, Stalin's purges had nothing to do with Germany. The Bolsheviks had been actively killing and purging Russians before Hitler ever left Vienna.

If there was any inspiration, it would have been the French Revolution and the "Night of Terror".

 

[J.A.W.]

I expect that is where Hitler drew inspiration from, Hitler was a fan of Napoleon,
seeing himself as being able to succeed in establishing a modern 'Pan-Europa',
& even visiting Napoleon's tomb in Paris, in 1940 - but Hitler evidently didn't learn too
much from the 1812 invasion debacle in Russia..

Maybe that's due to the Heer victory over the Czar in WW 1, & the fact that Hitler
spent his war solely on the Western front - albeit unsuccessfully.

So, having whipped Britain out of France 'himself' in 1940, he'd have 'naturally'
figured he could deal to ol' Joe's mob too, esp' after the Finlanders had shown
them to be such hapless buffoons..

Stalin is on the record (AFAIR - I'll try & find the reference) as both approving of,
& being emboldened by - Hitler's purging of his own party apparatus,
- but also 'naturally' - had to take it to the next level, with his awful 'show trial' stunts,
to 'expose the counter-revolutionary elements' - as demanded by Communist doctrine.

 

[v2]

You post reads as if it was written by the Vatican propaganda dept, rather than via examination of their archives..

The Papal deal with Hitler went far deeper, & that evasion network you note - was also well utilized by ex-Nazis
post-war, many of whom were on widely circulated wanted lists as fugitive war-criminals..

AFAIR, there was a plan by radical SS/SD elements to 'liquidate' the Pope & blame Communists,
during the confusion attending the Italian-Allied armistice in `43, - but Hitler vetoed the deal..

Polish priests belonged to the group most persecuted by Germans and Russians. The list of victims is attached:
MARTYROLOGY of CLERGY in POLAND

 

[GrauGeist]

I expect that is where Hitler drew inspiration from, Hitler was a fan of Napoleon,
seeing himself as being able to succeed in establishing a modern 'Pan-Europa',
& even visiting Napoleon's tomb in Paris, in 1940 - but Hitler evidently didn't learn too
much from the 1812 invasion debacle in Russia..

Maybe that's due to the Heer victory over the Czar in WW 1, & the fact that Hitler
spent his war solely on the Western front - albeit unsuccessfully.

So, having whipped Britain out of France 'himself' in 1940, he'd have 'naturally'
figured he could deal to ol' Joe's mob too, esp' after the Finlanders had shown
them to be such hapless buffoons..

Stalin is on the record (AFAIR - I'll try & find the reference) as both approving of,
& being emboldened by - Hitler's purging of his own party apparatus,
- but also 'naturally' - had to take it to the next level, with his awful 'show trial' stunts,
to 'expose the counter-revolutionary elements' - as demanded by Communist doctrine.

There's several points I'll touch on, in regards to your post.

First of all, Hitler wasn't a fan of Napoleon. There is some revisionism floating about how Hitler admired Napoleon and such, but it's nonsense. Hitler had a strong dislike of the French and it was Fieldmarschall von Blücher and his Prussians that broke the back of Napoleon's army at Waterloo. Napoleon lost - Hitler was not propping up a loser.

Secondly, the Germans didn't beat the Czar in WWI, the Bulgarians, Austrians, Hungarians, Turks and Germans weakened them and the the Bolsheviks administered the Coupe De Grace. And Germany invested far more manpower and assets to the Eastern Front than was committed to the western front in WWII.

The Soviets were being handed their ass by the Finns because Stalin's purges weakened his High Command. After the the Germans invaded, if it wasn't for Zhukov (who escaped the purges) the Germans would have most likely handed Stalin his ass. Stalin was a paranoid megalomaniac who was propped up into power by the bolsheviks, whom he purged out of paranoia. Hitler didn't conduct massive purges, he simply rounded up the mentally retarded, homosexuals, socialists and people who spoke out against the state at first. Using Jews as a scapegoat to further his agenda widened the playing field.
But Hitler never had purges within his own party or his military like the Soviets did.

 

[J.A.W.]

If Hitler had no time for Napoleon, then why was he filmed 'paying his respects' at the French dictators tomb?
(Index check 'bout any Hitler book, & see bulk Napoleon references duly noted).

Hitler sure loved Paris, too.. & he didn't send scores of his V-weapons to rain down on the French capital, did he..

Roehm, the Nazi SA boss ( & Hitler's ol' buddy) was 'liquidated' on Hitlers order,
along with other perceived potential rivals to his power, in the 'night of the long knives' Nazi party purge..

Rommel was a notable example of a high-ranking Heer member who was purged, too.

 

[GrauGeist]

It appears you have alot to learn about history.

Hitler visited a great many sites in Paris because he was the first German invader to do so. He was photographed in front of the Eiffel Tower not because he admired Eiffel...but because it was a famous landmark.

The V weapons were trained on military targets, he already held Paris, so why would he attack it? Even after Paris was lost to the Allies after D-day, there was no strategic value in attacking Paris.

The SA became a rival to the SS, there was going to be a power struggle. Rommel was found to be complicit in the attempt on Hitler's life...one General was not even close to the hundreds of officers that were continuously purged under Stalin. The few Germans that came under scrutiny cannot even be compared to the Soviet paranoia...at all.

 

[J.A.W.]

Ah, no...
In fact there were plenty of German 'invaders' sightseeing in Paris, in 1815, & again in 1871.
But Hitler def' saw himself as a C20th 'Napoleon' - & fancied he could do better..

V-weapons were city-bombardment weapons, they lacked the accuracy required for such precise targeting.

Numerous members of the Heer officer cadre were executed when the July `44 plot failed to kill Hitler,
Rommel was a real 'big fish', but he wasn't exempted, even though - he'd long been a - 'Fuehrer's pet'..

 

[Capt. Vick]

The end of the movie had such a long lasting and disturbing effect on me, that I fear it has jaded my view of all Russians. I know this is silly, but...God how horrifying. Damn.

 

[michaelmaltby]

".... all Russians."
or, all Communists?

 

[swampyankee]

The differences between Hitler and Napoleon are legion, not least of which is that Napoleon wasn't in the habit of genocide, and that was a major reason for Hitler's war. Napoleon's Civil Code is the basis for the legal system in most of western Europe; Hitler left nothing in his wake except death camps.

Stalin and Hitler were very much alike: Stalin killed anybody who he thought was a threat, so did Hitler. It's just that Hitler felt that being Jewish or Slavic was sufficient for being a threat, while Stalin thought anybody who somebody said rolled his eyes when Stalin was on the radio was one.

Both Stalin and Hitler would consider the intelligentsia and officer class of Poland to be threats; both would want to kill them, and the simple fact that genocide was a publicly stated, eagerly followed policy of the nazis made it much easier for blame to be placed on the Germans*. Hell, Hitler's war crimes are frequently overlooked, excused, or ignored, albeit only by people on the fringe.



-------

* The simple fact that genocides and other mass war crimes had been performed by other leaders before, after, and during Hitler's reign is frequently overlooked. It doesn't make Hitler less guilty, any more than Manson's crimes made Dahmer less guilty.

 

[michaelmaltby]

You are espousing a two-dimensional view of the Nazis ... and Hitler, himself. That's a shame because the most interesting aspect of Nazism and Hitler's personality cult, IMHO, is the hypocrisy of leading Nazis and Hitler around accepting Jews. The hypocrisy is the 3rd dimension ... it's human ... it's reality ... it's the threshold to putting yourself in others' shoes.
Erhard Milch - Wikipedia,
Milch, who preceded Albert Speer, was Jewish (non practicing). There were numerous Waffen SS officers who were non-practicing Jews. The Reich had no qualms about offering Iron Crosses to Finnish soldiers who were Jewish ... the Finns declined.
Herman Goering fancied himself as an artiste and liked to circulate with actors and actresses ... some were Jewish.
I'm making this point, swampyankee, because the more I delve into the history and memoirs of the period ... the more clearly I understand how the whole thing took shape, prospered and was accepted. A perfect storm. And within the movement the Leaders practiced what politicians always practice in every regime ... do as I say, not as I do.

 

[v2]

You are espousing a two-dimensional view of the Nazis ... and Hitler, himself. That's a shame because the most interesting aspect of Nazism and Hitler's personality cult, IMHO, is the hypocrisy of leading Nazis and Hitler around accepting Jews. The hypocrisy is the 3rd dimension ... it's human ... it's reality ... it's the threshold to putting yourself in others' shoes.
Erhard Milch - Wikipedia,
Milch, who preceded Albert Schpeer, was Jewish (non practicing). There were numerous Waffen SS officers who were non-practicing Jews. The Reich had no qualms about offering Iron Crosses to Finnish soldiers who were Jewish ... the Finns declined.
Herman Goering fancied himself as an artiste and liked to circulate with actors and actresses ... some were Jewish.
I'm making this point, swampyankee, because the more I delve into the history and memoirs of the period ... the more clearly I understand how the whole thing took shape, prospered and was accepted. A perfect storm. And within the movement the Leaders practiced what politicians always practice in every regime ... do as I say, not as I do.

The Jews who fought for Hitler: 'We did not help the Germans. We had a common enemy'

 

[v2]

Hypocrisy was on all sides... The U.S. Government Turned Away Thousands of Jewish Refugees, Fearing That They Were Nazi Spies | History | Smithsonian

How a Polish Courier Tried to Tell the World About the Holocaust

 

[swampyankee]

Hypocrisy was on all sides... The U.S. Government Turned Away Thousands of Jewish Refugees, Fearing That They Were Nazi Spies | History | Smithsonian

US racial policies were deeply embedded into immigration laws until the Johnson administration, but they were written, in the 1920s specifically to exclude Eastern Europeans (which included most Ashkenazi Jews), Southern Europeans and other people from the Mediterranean region, (which included most Sephardic Jews), Asians, and Africans. The Cable Act even stripped citizenship from Americans who married people from Asia. Marriage between blacks and whites was illegal in many states, and some racists repeatedly proposed constitutional amendments to forbid it (a proviso forbidding inter-racial marriage remained in the Alabama constitution until quite recently)

As a related anecdote: my Jewish brother-in-law's grandfather immigrated to the US just before WW2; his family was one of the last permitted in under the quota system then in effect. My brother-in-law's father had siblings, but all his cousins were murdered by Hitler.

How a Polish Courier Tried to Tell the World About the Holocaust

There was a great deal of skepticism, throughout the West, about Hitler's death camp: the Germans were civilized, and civilized people don't do that.

 

[J.A.W.]

The differences between Hitler and Napoleon are legion, not least of which is that Napoleon wasn't in the habit of genocide, and that was a major reason for Hitler's war. Napoleon's Civil Code is the basis for the legal system in most of western Europe; Hitler left nothing in his wake except death camps.

Stalin and Hitler were very much alike: Stalin killed anybody who he thought was a threat, so did Hitler. It's just that Hitler felt that being Jewish or Slavic was sufficient for being a threat, while Stalin thought anybody who somebody said rolled his eyes when Stalin was on the radio was one.

Both Stalin and Hitler would consider the intelligentsia and officer class of Poland to be threats; both would want to kill them, and the simple fact that genocide was a publicly stated, eagerly followed policy of the nazis made it much easier for blame to be placed on the Germans*. Hell, Hitler's war crimes are frequently overlooked, excused, or ignored, albeit only by people on the fringe.

Incorrect..
Hitler, as an amateur historian - had duly noted Napoleon's ruthless action methods
in his conquests, from callous disregard to his own sick & wounded troops, through vicious
suppression of 'partisan' resistance to French occupation, & the blatantly sadistic terror-tactics
used in his mass-murderous campaigns - to re-establish slavery in French colonies.

Sure Hitler had - in his living memory seen evidence of genocide - that of the Armenians in 1915,
plus more recently, Stalin's cruel starvation scheme in Ukraine, & anti-Kulak activies, too.

Both dictators automatically suppressed dissent, & RC clergy notably, as secretive & influential
'agents' of a 'foreign state', which the Vatican is, - quite naturally.

 

[Greg Boeser]