DB605 Crankcase

Discussion in 'Engines' started by Barry, Sep 28, 2010.

  1. Barry

    Barry New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Occupation:
    Self employed machinist/foundryman
    Location:
    Ohio
    Home Page:
    I finally made time to get these shots of the DB605A crankcase in my shop resized so I can post them.

    The next step for this is to determine if the crankcase is airworthy. That will require the removal of all of the original wartime paint and all corrosion that has attacked the aluminum since. As can be seen there is a light coat of corrosion over all of the interior surfaces.

    The data plate for this engine has been lost. The white number painted on the outside of the casting is the engine's serial number so a new data plate will be made in due course.

    Unfortunately almost all of the threaded studs have been broken off so there will be a fair amount of work involved in removing them. A trip to Vintage V12s in California may be in its future.

    Meanwhile the search for DB605 parts goes on....

    Enjoy....
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Coors9

    Coors9 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    527
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    Machinist
    Location:
    St.john's Newfoundland
    Send it to me , i've got 4 milling machines to get the studs out...only shows 2
     

    Attached Files:

  3. razor1uk

    razor1uk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,436
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    Tamago no Chie
    Location:
    Tamago no Chie, (B'ham, UK)
    Considering its age, it seems ok, but therin lies a problem, magnetic crack detection, and x-ray tests to check the internal integrateis should be thought of too.
     
  4. robwkamm

    robwkamm Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Messages:
    126
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Occupation:
    Owner of gas station, auto repair and towing buisness.
    Location:
    fair Lawn NJ
    Nice piece you got there. coors9 i think you could make one from scratch with that work shop.
     
  5. Barry

    Barry New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Occupation:
    Self employed machinist/foundryman
    Location:
    Ohio
    Home Page:
    Yes, nondestructive inspection will be done as well. Overall the casting is in pretty decent shape considering what it has been through.

    I have a fair amount of Daimler-Benz documents on mircofilm pertaining to the DB605; inspection of its manufacturing tolerances, material specs for its parts, and so forth.

    With a background as a machinist and having an aluminum foundry, I am in awe of the quality of foundry work the old boys at DB were capable of even under wartime conditions. One of the pattern shops that builds some of my casting patterns has seen the photos and is interested in having a crack at building the required pattern equipment for the crankcase, reduction gear case and the accessory case. Before that happens I'd like to have the original DB drawings in hand. I want to keep the reverse engineering cost down as much as possible. The owner of the pattern shop has built pattern equipment for 1960s era Porsche race car engines (to build completely new engines).

    Currently I'm still producing castings and machined parts for the Tri-State Warbird Museum's P40M restoration. That is taking up all of my available time so the DB605 project isn't moving forward very quickly. All in due time!!!
     
  6. robwkamm

    robwkamm Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Messages:
    126
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Occupation:
    Owner of gas station, auto repair and towing buisness.
    Location:
    fair Lawn NJ
    #6 robwkamm, Sep 29, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2010
    Barry, thanks for doing this how ever long it takes. it would be wonderful to see new DB engines in my life time. I know Jack roush triied to do it with the merlin and i heard RR said no way. do you see any issues with doing this?
     
  7. Barry

    Barry New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Occupation:
    Self employed machinist/foundryman
    Location:
    Ohio
    Home Page:
    Well, I haven't contacted Mercedes-Benz or Daimler. It may well be that I won't be able to call any new engines "DB605". The name of my company is Black Cross Aviation so maybe I'd call it a "BCA605" or something similar.

    The idea is to use as many original components as possible. There are starters, fuel injection pumps, and other components that occasionally come up for sale. The starters were manufactured by Bosch, magnetos were as well. I don't know that I'd want to be dependent on obtaining the blessing of all the original manufacturers of all of the myriad subcontracted conponents.

    I will keep in mind that MB or Daimler may put the kebosh to the project. If the engine is produced by someone other than MB or Daimler then the data plates would have to reflect the real manufacturer and not be an exact copy of the original data plate.

    Why on earth wouldn't those stuffy Brits allow Rouch to build new Merlins? Why didn't he just tell them to go fly a kite and build the PACKARD Merlin instead of the Rolls-Royce version? As I understand it the Merlin was somewhat redesigned by Packard to facilitate its manufacture with American methods and processes. Besides the data plates on a Packard-built Merlin reflected that fact.

    On second thought Packard built them under license.......
     
  8. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    9,779
    Likes Received:
    802
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    retired Firefighter
    Location:
    Central Florida Highlands
    The Swedes built some DB605s under licence. Perhaps there is some help or parts there?
     
  9. engguy

    engguy Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    186
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Barry, your doing the sort of thing I'd love to do, all it takes is $ and I haven't won power ball yet. As far as Roush and building some brand of engine, I have wondered about the after market automotive business and how they copy such things as Cylinder block castings and such.
    If Roush really did go ahead with a RR copy but improved, he could call it an RR still, Roush Racing. In the end you would think any big manufacture would love their name on something as advertizing. And maybe get some sort of SMALL royalty from it.
     
  10. Barry

    Barry New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Occupation:
    Self employed machinist/foundryman
    Location:
    Ohio
    Home Page:
    Right now the goal is to amass as many original componets as possible while searching out the necessary engineering data (some of which I have).

    The drawings that Flug Werk digitized for their FW190 project were found in a German Archive. It may well be that there are engine drawings stored in German Archives as well. It only requires some leg work and maybe some traveling to find out.

    Hmmm.... A trip to Germany...... It could be worse I guess!!!
     
  11. engguy

    engguy Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    186
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    #11 engguy, Oct 2, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2010
    It would be a bit difficult to reverse engineer something like that with corrosion on the machined surfaces, you would definatly need the matching components, and some good guesses on the clearances etc. I thought I read some place the DB605 used roller main bearings? An improvement on that maybe incorporating plain bearings instead. As far as broke bolts studs etc. I have done lots of that on CNC mills,
    we always end up breaking the 4-40 taps in the silicon bronze parts we make. If I had to setup I would like to have I'd love to give a go on reverse engineering that block. As far as using it, many of those machined surfaces will have to be kissed-cleaned on a machine like .003 to possibly .010 to clean up maybe more.
    Do you have the main caps for it?

    Looked at the picture again, maybe just a little block sanding on some surfaces.
     
  12. robwkamm

    robwkamm Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Messages:
    126
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Occupation:
    Owner of gas station, auto repair and towing buisness.
    Location:
    fair Lawn NJ
    i thought i heard some were and saw pictures of a dig at Frankfort airport a few years back were they recovered 10 or so complete engines.I wonder if anything is available for you to ise a s patterns? ...maybe to borrow and return in exchange for some static resto work.
     
  13. Barry

    Barry New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Occupation:
    Self employed machinist/foundryman
    Location:
    Ohio
    Home Page:
    #13 Barry, Oct 3, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2010
    The DB605 used plain main bearings according to the illustrated parts books I have on CD (from Hafner). This was suprising to me as I thought they'd have used roller bearings. But plain bearings obviously worked... There is the remains of a roller bearing in the crankcase that is related to the reduction gearing that will have to be removed. It is somewhat visible in the picture I posted of the front of the engine.

    There is some corrosion on the working surfaces on this crankcase so that will be an issue. Nothing major but still.... I have some info on how they cast engine blocks back in the day. It was in what is called a permanent mold. This is one (obviously) that is used over and over. The cores are set with great precision and the mold is essentially closed around them. The mold itself has cooling jackets around it so that the foundry can maintain the mold in mass production. In any reproduction effort, one of low production numbers, say 10 to 12, I think the old way would serve well. There aren't many 109s out there that need new engines. However my thinking is directed more to the Spanish built HA1112s or to be used as spares.

    As far as reverse engineering goes, I don't think it is possible on the crancase or cylinder banks. The configuration of the oil and coolant passages are internal in those parts. The only way to know what they look like is to have the original drawings in hand. A good pattern shop would be able to make the core boxes "in a snap" with the drawings. It would be very difficult to do without cutting up the original parts to have access to those areas.

    I recently read an article in Popular Mechanics, written by Jay Leno, about a guy who cast brand new Duesenberg heads. Leno has, I think seven Duesenbergs. Anyway this guy had the orignial prints and was able to reproduce the head exactly. Incidently the original Duesenberg engine blocks and heads were cast by Lycoming. This is a small indication of what is possible.

    I've heard about someone excavating several engines from an airport in Germany but heard that they were Jumo 213s. Any idea who has them? This would definately be something to look into. There are reputed to be some DB605s held privately in the US. I believe that Kermit Weeks owns one or two in his collection of aircraft in Florida. I may be able to use the contacts and clients I have in the warbird industry to put some feelers out.

    I don't have the main caps. The guy in Germany who I bought the crankcase from was only offering a stripped case. He had four crankcases to choose from. I picked the one in the best condition so I am starting "from the ground up".
     
  14. engguy

    engguy Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    186
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Agree drawings would be nice, but even good photos would be better than nothing especially for the bearing caps. The oil gallery thing would not be difficult to reproduce, pretty much standard practice stuff there.
     
  15. vintage radials

    vintage radials New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Occupation:
    owner
    Location:
    calif
    Barry, if you are serious about wanting to do some parts for the DB 605 I may be able to use you for my projects. I have 5 cores I am trying to build two engines out of. Rolls won't release the drawings for the merlin. The cost of just a new crank if you do 50 is more than a core engine. There are over 250 merlin cores in the system so the big items are not a real concern yet. Most of the wear parts are being reproduced as needed.
     
  16. engguy

    engguy Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    186
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I would like the chance to make new parts for these vintage engines. My problem is if I find the land and build the shop then I can not purchase the machinery. Not including the price of material, and not using a forging I could with the right machine make a crank for around 5k or less. And probably less than that after the bugs are worked out of the first setup and tooling. Does not include heat treat and finish grind.
     
  17. vintage radials

    vintage radials New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Occupation:
    owner
    Location:
    calif
    not a chance on new cranks
    there are 25 to 30 heat treatments plus the nitriding
    all the surfaces are ground and polished
    through the process there are repeated NDT inspections
     
  18. engguy

    engguy Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    186
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    #18 engguy, Oct 29, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2010
    I can see an anneal as first, then machine rough, then heat treat, stress relieve, then finish machine, then nitride, straighten, then finish grind etc. Electroplating and stipping before and after the heat treat sessions.
    25 to 30 ?? Explain why please. I bet they trimmed that way down in war time.
    I've worked on forged steel airframe parts and they never saw 25 to 30 heat treat cycles, it was pretty much what I described above.
     
  19. Barry

    Barry New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Occupation:
    Self employed machinist/foundryman
    Location:
    Ohio
    Home Page:
    Vintage Radials, I'm interested in helping out in any way I can. Send me a private message and I'll send you my email address and we can discuss this. I've been busy with P40 work and I'm getting ready to get back into the foundry to cast some P40 parts.

    Thanks,
    Barry
    Home
     
  20. Spits

    Spits Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2008
    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    Welder
    Location:
    Toowoomba
    Home Page:
    If anyone can do it,Roush can.His company has extensive facilities and I think he already does Merlin heads.
    Roush Aerospace
     
Loading...

Share This Page