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"No special prediction equipment was carried, which is a real giveaway about what the RN thought about their real AA potential>"
Or the mounting of a single 12pdr or 4 in gun on a high angle mount in place of one torpedo mount showed what was thought of the four-six 4.7 in guns on 40 degree mounts. And the 12pdr/4in was darn near useless. The ships would have been better served with a few single 2pdr or 20mm or even multiple .5 in MGs.
the JKN/Tribal destroyers didn't have DP guns. They were SP guns only, if they had been DP why did the tribals have 2 x 4in instead of 2 x 4.7in?
In theory it was a DP gun with all the trimmings but at the end of the day if you cannot get your gun to point at the target then all the director gear in the world will not help you.
As a result of combat experience all surviving Tribals had 2 x 4in installed and the last few had 8 x 4in not 8 x 4.7. All surviving JKN's had a 4in instead of a set of torpedo tubes.
You have to ask yourself why they felt the need to take such drastic action, if the 4.7in was a DP gun in the first place.
Warren Armstrong, standing on the control officer's platform with his head out of his hatch, tried to coach the Mk-33 around to the diving planes. Jaworski and Serwitz would slew the director frantically by eye with their handwheels until, with Canaday's advice, they thought they were "on target," then would drop down to try to catch the plunging planes in their optics. It was an impossible task! At the rangekeeper, Copeland and I watched Warren's feet and lower torso expectantly as he squirmed about, hoping he'd get the director "locked on" to something so we could shoot. The attack was coming in from high over our section of the screen. The enemy planes were passing over our heads as they bore in on Enterprise. We'd whirl the director to try to get our sights on a Jap, but it takes a big arc of train to make even a small change near the zenith. They'd be over the top and out the other side before we could settle on them. Jaworski on the Pointer's scope reported "On Target" a couple of times, but he couldn't follow the fast motion as the attackers dove in. We never got a shot off!
http://destroyerhistory.org/goldplater/ussmaury/index.asp?r=40130&pid=40136
Im afraid I agree with glider on this one (and no, we are not conspiring against you RCAFson) . The article you posted from wiki includes some comments from Vian about the inneffectiveness of the 4.7" DP mount against aircraft. Not a complete waste of time, i will grant you, but not greatly effective either. As i recall Cunningham was similar in his view, though I cannot find at the minute his exact comments.
There were a number of problems with the 4.7" but more particularly its mount and support equipment. Some of these problems had little to do with the actual gun or the mounts. The RN adopted a faulty method of HA fire control for its medium and heavy batteries. i confess im not 100% certain of the specific types of directors used in given Destroyer classes, though I do know that the Battles were fitted with a "Mk VI" director and another apparatus called a "Mk XL corrector". However Campbell is pretty damning of all British pre-war direectors because of their methods of stabilization....in practice they proved incapable of dealing woith aircraft that were chamging course and or speed or altitude. they were better than nothing, but compared to the USN HA directors, were pretty average affairs.
For HA Short range weapponary, most work was done as over open sights until late in 1942. After that date , RN DDs began to receive some elementary beam switching gear. Dont ask me to give a detailed explanation, all I know is that it was linked to radars to give a pretty good indication of deflection and other corrections to the gunners of the LAA batteries. But in 1939, director control for the LAA in the RN was almost non existent.
The other problems with the 4.7 in mountings are squarely to with the gun and the mounts they were put into. The gun mounts, to put it mildly were simply too slow in both training speed and elevation to be effective, and as i suspected, the gun could not be loaded above 40 degrees elevation. The best turrets housing the 4.7 had a training sppeed of 10 degrees per secons and a max elevating speed that was the same. by comparison, the 4.5s in the battles were nearly twice that speed. The USN 5/38 had a traverse speed of 34 degreees per second and and elevating speed of 18 degrees per second. put simply the 4.7 was too slow to be effective, and wasnt well directed until later in the war
A 270 knot (500 km/h) target crossing the line of sight at right angles, at 2000 yards (1829 m) range, will move across the line of sight at 4.5 degrees per second. This simple fact of geometry appears to contradict the assertion that a 10-degree-per-second traverse rate was too slow to track a high-speed aircraft.
but one would never know about these problems by reading Campbell because he glosses over defects in the USN AA firecontrol, while being highly critical of less serious problems in RN AA fire control.The USN never considered the Mk 33 to be a satisfactory system, but wartime production problems, and the added weight and space requirements of the Mk 37 precluded phasing out the Mk 33: "Although superior to older equipment, the computing mechanisms within the range keeper (Mk10) were too slow, both in reaching initial solutions on first picking up a target and in accommodating frequent changes in solution caused by target maneuvers. The Mk 33 was thus distinctly inadequate, as indicated to some observers in simulated air attack exercises prior to hostilities. However, final recognition of the seriousness of the deficiency and initiation of replacement plans were delayed by the below decks space difficulty, mentioned in connection with the Mk28 replacement. Furthermore, priorities of replacements of older and less effective director systems in the crowded wartime production program were responsible for the fact the Mk 33's service was lengthened to the cessation of hostilities."[19]
Ship gun fire-control system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and:
From the "Sham battles" we had with our own carrier planes, it became clear that in war we would be subjected to attacks which broke very quickly, seldom with any warning. When an incoming plane was sighted, we would struggle to get our director's sights on target, measure the rapidly closing range, adjust the Mk-10 to a solution and simulate opening fire before the attacker could complete his attack. Frequently we'd still be "slewing" the director to get on target when he roared overhead, attack completed. We held tracking drills at every opportunity to improve our ability to acquire targets quickly, but we had no mechanism to point out the target to the men on the director's telescopes—the control officer had to coax them on by voice. I became seriously concerned that we couldn't handle incoming dive or strafing attacks.
http://destroyerhistory.org/goldplater/ussmaury/index.asp?r=40130&pid=40131 (the MK 33 director contained a Mk 10 rangekeeper (computer) )
The Porters had weight problems as they tried to include eight main guns and a full set of torpedos. The Tribals didn't have such a problem as they lost a set of torpedos in the design stage. Don't confude the two. Also the weight of the quad 2pd was about the same as two quad 1.1in mounts.
The Porters didn't have DP guns as that would had pushed the weght further, The Tribals because the RN didn't fit DP guns in DD's at the time.
Switching a twin 4in for a twin 4.7 had nothing to do with weight.
Higher speeds were only needed against very close range targets
I am afraid I don't understand your comment about the adding a quad 2pd at the cost of 25% of the guns. They started the war with one quad and finished with one quad 2pd. Had the Tribal spent most of the war in the pacific I have little doubt that the AA fire would have been changed. Quite probably to a similar level as the last Canadian built Tribals 8 x 4in DP, 6 x 40mm, 4 x 20mm and 4 x TT which are a better balance than the Porters
No incorrect. Slower travers speeds mean the mount spends more time moving, and less time firing...
Many Tribal class did serve in the Pacific (all the RAN ones), but the point is that adding a quad pom-pom either means removing the only TTs or reducing gun power by 25%. The solution was to swap a 4.7in twin for a 4in twin. The last Canadian built Tribals had 6 x 4.7 and 2 x 4in, as did all the wartime Tribals, and unlike the Porters' 5in they could use their 4.7in in controlled fire, giving them a heavy AA armament.
I
b) The Porters did have a combined HA/LA director even though the guns were single purpose like the Tribals
c) Like the Tribals the Porters had a heavy AA gun installed, a single 5in DP in the Porter a twin 4in in the Tribals
d) I certainly agree that the Tribal 4.7 could be used against torpedo bombers and in theory dive bombers after they had dropped their bombsbut against any other kind of air attack they were useless
e) Your theory about the addition of another quad 2pd is I think also wrong. During the war the Australian Tribals were equipped with an addition 6 x 40mm gun which weighed a lot more than one additional quad 2pd
f) If you could supply any evidence to support your theory that the 4.7in was dual purpose I would be very interested to see it. I would also be interested in seeing any evidence that the installation of the 4in was anything to do with weight
Its only fair that I give you my opening support. Its a link to a very well respected website on Naval Weapons. Britain 4.7"/45 (12 cm) QF Mark IX
Please note the opening statement
The lack of a DP function for these weapons was keenly felt throughout the war as more British destroyers were sunk by air attack than from any other cause. What little AA capability that these weapons did have was hindered by a lack of a tachymetric (predictive) fire control system and the setting of HE time fuzes by hand. The last single mounting designed, the CPXXII, had a spring operated rammer, but all other single mountings were completely hand worked. The twin mounting had power ramming and used power training and elevation but no RPC gear was installed.
The performance of the 5" A.A. batteries was uniformly poor. There was much wild shooting with no indication of control other than local. Bursts were in most cases short and ineffective. Other than noise effect on morale it may be assumed that this battery was useless for close range melee.The automatic weapons, 1.1 and 20 m.m. although extremely wild were more effective. At least 85% of the fire observed from these weapons was low and trailing. Failure to lead sufficiently and following the tangent of the tracer trajectory were all too apparent. The only solution is believed to be more practice firing from all angles at high speed towed sleeves. Pointers for 20 m.m. guns should be able-bodied, intelligent, marines, trained in "Duck Shooting."
HyperWar: Battle of Coral Sea--Task Unit 17.2.2 Action Report
(e) Replacement of 5"38 caliber guns, 1.1" guns and 50 caliber machine guns, by a large number of 40mm automatic guns. While smaller caliber automatic guns have proven effective at short ranges, their range is too short to offer effective opposition to attacking planes prior to delivery of their attack. 5"38 caliber guns are very effective at long ranges and should be retained in ships which are used as anti-aircraft screening vessels.
Battle of Midway: USS Yorktown Action Report