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consider a marksman with a rifle, to hit, at 600 yards, a man on a horse (man or horse) with a rifle without a telescopic sight would be a fantastic shot. To hit the same man on a galloping horse would be unbelievable. Now put the marksman on a vibrating platform moving in all directions by small amounts and change the man on the horse for an aircraft which relative to the marksman can be doing zero MPH or 600 MPH (200 MPH bomber speed and 400 mph fighter speed in opposite directions) and also it can move in any direction. Additionally in a dorsal or ventral turret the wind speed varies from approximately 200mph head wind, tail wind, side wind and the effect of gravity varies from maximum in a horizontal shot to zero on a vertical shot. The use of a machine gun instead of a rifle is to compensate for inaccuracy, a sniper always uses a single shot rifle.
A man using a computing gun sight in a turret is not having to make all those complicated calculations and compensations himself. The analogy to a marksman using an iron or optical sight is not relevant. This is also why I said above that I'd be amazed if the gunners in a US bomber who were using iron sights ever hit anything.
The use of an automatic weapon rather than a single shot in the context of aerial combat is not to compensate for inaccuracy. It is to try to ensure enough hits to destroy the target. One hit will knock a man of a horse, it almost certainly won't knock an attacking fighter out of the sky.
The British leapt through all sorts of hoops in the 1930s to work out how many rifle calibre machine guns were required in their fighters to ensure enough hits on a bomber (their intended target) to destroy it with a two second burst. It's why the Spitfire and Hurricane carried eight machine guns.
Cheers
Steve
As for the offensive perspective (fighter pilot / plane) I have been operating under the assumption that tracer rounds were put in to help the pilot "fly" his rounds onto the target. Is that a good assumption? Prior to the lead computing gun sight fighter guys were doing a bit of Kentucky windage with a dynamic (moving) gun platform against a dynamic target with feedback coming from tracer rounds and or strikes on the target aircraft (with the target sometimes obscured by the nose of the aircraft) with a weapon that has some bullet dispersion (inaccuracy) built in.
Cheers,
Biff
Hello pbehn
so you don't have sources to back up your claim. The need of an escort rose from the inherent advantages of fighters over bombers but that is a different thing than your claim that the gunners didn't aim to individual attacker. And why the LW adopted the more difficult head on attack over the tradiotional stern attack after first contacts with B-17 formations? Why they shunned down individual attacks against the USAAF heavybomber formations and went to formation head-on attacks? If 10 or 25 fighters attacked line abreast there weren't 100 mgs firing at each of them.
A man using a computing gun sight in a turret is not having to make all those complicated calculations and compensations himself. The analogy to a marksman using an iron or optical sight is not relevant. This is also why I said above that I'd be amazed if the gunners in a US bomber who were using iron sights ever hit anything.
The use of an automatic weapon rather than a single shot in the context of aerial combat is not to compensate for inaccuracy. It is to try to ensure enough hits to destroy the target. One hit will knock a man of a horse, it almost certainly won't knock an attacking fighter out of the sky.
The British leapt through all sorts of hoops in the 1930s to work out how many rifle calibre machine guns were required in their fighters to ensure enough hits on a bomber (their intended target) to destroy it with a two second burst. It's why the Spitfire and Hurricane carried eight machine guns.
Cheers
Steve
I discounted the Stirling as it was a sitting duck on night time raids I doubt if the LW would bother doing anything except keeping the box tight to allow ground fire to blow them away. How many of the 7,400 lancs had air cooled engines 350? 400? The Halifax had approx 30% with hercules engines and what does that mean? How do you make a protective formation with so many different aircraft, the only answer is to fly at the speed and altitude of the lowest performer. Add in the loss of speed and altitude of a ventral turret if fitted to some or all and there is no way the British could mount a daylight campaign without crippling losses. The USA took a time out and came back with a new bomber force and escort fighter force.
I accept the technical argument about gun sights, if you accept that the gunner aims and hits a target. In most cases they fire in the general direction and someone gets a lucky hit, in that case the sight doesn't matter it is the effectiveness of the round.
The first bombing missions by BC were in fact, daylight raids. And they suffered terribly for a couple reasons:The RAF had already decided that daylight operations were impractical, hence the switch to night ops. There was never any consideration of flying in daylight.
The first bombing missions by BC were in fact, daylight raids. And they suffered terribly for a couple reasons:
First, this was early in the war and BC was using older types (Battles, Wellingtons, and so on).
Secondly, they were unescorted in airspace that was, at this stage of the war, dominated by the Luftwaffe.
Virtually all of the daylight missions BC conducted ended with a serious mauling of the bombers.
Even later, when the USAAF initially started thier daylight mission3, they suffered such losses that the missions were stopped while the brass evaluated the situation.
The RAF's decision to move their bombing missions to night-time was a sound move, but it wasn't the original plan.