Difficult question for "black 3"

[akonti]

Hi guys,

I'm building a D-9 black 3 (ex 17 of 6/jg6 pilot Hemy Harter)

I own two differernt profiles.

a) covered with "Yellowish - buff" side fuselage color (i dont mean RLM84)
b) covered with RLM99

Which one is the correct for the particular aircraft????

Its a matter of great argues here in Greece. The standards are close to b) sellection.

But many books (japo etc) show some 109 K with the yellowish color ending (roughly) at the bottom of the fuselage cross

How possible is -a- sellection???? for Black 3???

Does anybody know any details about it??

 

[Micdrow]

My best bet would be Wurger or Erich to answer that question.

 

[Wurger]

Hallo Akonti,

The profiles show Fw190D-9 og II/JG6 in May 1945 at Halle airfield Germany.
It is really difficult question.First od all I would like to make something clear.
To be honest the colours RLM 84 and RLM99 did't exist at all.I agree with Mr.Jakub Plewka's article about Luftwaffe colours in the SuperModel magazine no.1/2005 that these colours were used to paint a/cs but these were different totally.

RLM 84 or Ersatz 76 what is better name of the colour ,was identified in some tonalities.Its tonality depended on the kind of the surface on which was applied.The colour can be compared to RAF "Sky type S" or " Duck Egg Blue" for instance Humbrol 90 and its mixtures with Humbrol 23 or Vallejo "Air" - Duck Egg Greek 009.

As I said RLM99 is a myth.But it had also many tonalities.In fact the colour was a kind of a preservative.Its colour wasn't important contrary to its preservation features and depended on its chemical composition.Its colours were identified as redish-brown,yellow-grey,dark grey and greenish for instance.The colour was painted on parts of aircraft that weren't visible from outside.Therefore I think that the colour used on the fuselage of "Black 3" was probably the "Ersatz 76".Besides the Ersatz76 could become much more yellowish because of weather conditions,dirt etc...
So the "B" profile would be much more correct.

But there is another problem with the upper camo colours.Some sources state that the camo consisted of RLM81/RLM82 or like there:

Late War Luftwaffe Fighter Camouflage Part Eight - Fighter Profiles by Chris Royston

In AJ-Press "Modelmania" no.7 Fw190D-9 monographie I've found some colour profiles of D-9s of JG6 in 1945 and for upper camo pattern were used RLM81/RLM83 mostly.So there is possibility that these colours should be used on "Black 3".What is more RLM81 could make the Ersatz76 a bit darker(brownish-redish) because of its brown-violet tonality.Especially when RLM81 was airbrushing.

all the best,



BTW. THX Paul for the recommendation.

 

[akonti]

Dear Wurger,

Thank u for your info, but as far as i can understand, you mention a third option.... an RLM84 close to greenish 99 (??lifecolor and ????Gunze have miles of tone diference!) with a mix of a yellowish color???

Black "3" is a very unic camo, and as you already said its colors are a myth!!!

Personaly i prefer -a- selection for the fuselage side.

A light coat of yellowish buff oversprayed onto Rlm84 (with basic first fuselage color RLM76)

I agree with you for the rest colors of camo. Are correct.

Thank u again!!!

 

[Wurger]

Hallo Akonti,

I'm afraid you got me wrong a bit.Simply the names of RLM84 and RLM99 are incorrect.These names were used in 80's to call new identified colours that were used for painting of Luftwaffe planes.But these aren't listed on RLM files.

As I said the colour named "RLM99" was a preservative for parts of plane structure that were unvisible from outside.So it wasn't used for outside painting of fuselage,wings etc... rather.

But the colour so-called RLM84 is something different.It was a paint which was used for outside aircraft painting.And this colour was like the "Sky type S" or "Duck Egg Blue".Have you seen these colours? For sure yes.These have yellow-green tonality.Therefore it's more likely that the fuselage of Black3 was painted with the paint but not "RLM99" and had the yellow-green tonality insted of the one which we can see in the A profile.

I agree the camo of Black3 is quite unik but there were some planes painted with the colours for instance: Fw190D-9 of I/JG2 White15 Werk nr.600651 at Merzhausen airfield in December 1944.Often,the camo pattern was called "technical".The 3-view profile of the Black3 you can find in AJ-Press book "Painting and marking Luftwaffe 1935-45" vol.4 by Robert Michulec.


There some Fedaral Standard numbers for "RLM84" : FS 34432, FS 34554, FS 34583-FS 34672

Taking all mentioned above things into consideration I think that the Black3 had its fuselage painted like the B profile shows.Certainly if you like the A profile there is no problem, you can paint your model with the paint of that tonality.It's up to you only.What is more ,at the end of WW2 Luftwaffe had many truobles with almost all ( fuel,ammo, bombs ) also with paints,so there is possiblility that the fuselage of Black3 could be painted like A profile shows.But I believe that it was like in the B one.

regards,

 

[Micdrow]

BTW. THX Paul for the recommendation.

Your welcome, you answered it a way lot bet then I ever could of.

 

[Wurger]

Your welcome, you answered it a way lot bet then I ever could of.

A small exaggeration but nice.

 

[Micdrow]

A small exaggeration but nice.

Not really, I know next to nothing on the camo of aircraft. I like to research to odd or hard to find aspects of the aircraft itself.

 

[Wurger]

So THX again

 

[Wayne Little]

Black 3 colours as stated in Eagle Editions Dora Vol.1

Undersurfaces RLM 76 Light Blue, wingtips RLM 75 gray-Violet. Under cowling Yellow. (There is no "Light greenish" colour on this aircraft.)
Uppersurfaces RLM 75 / RLM 83 Dark Green with 83 heavy mottling.Upper wing RLM 75 / RLM 74 Gray-Green saw tooth pattern edges.
(Fuselage RLM 83 extends from the nose to rear of canopy where RLM 75 starts.)
To back this up there are 3 Colour photos, Page 259 10 o'clock far away shot.
Page 260, 1 o'clock and 12 o'clock.
Spinner Black with white spiral and prop blades RLM 70 Black Green.

National markings, Fuselage- B5 600mm white outline cross and H3 530mm black hakenkreuz. Wings Upper - B6 910mm white outline cross. Lower B1b 900mm Black crosses.
Hope this helps.

 

[akonti]

Black 3 colours as stated in Eagle Editions Dora Vol.1

Undersurfaces RLM 76 Light Blue, wingtips RLM 75 gray-Violet. Under cowling Yellow. (There is no "Light greenish" colour on this aircraft.)
Uppersurfaces RLM 75 / RLM 83 Dark Green with 83 heavy mottling.Upper wing RLM 75 / RLM 74 Gray-Green saw tooth pattern edges.
(Fuselage RLM 83 extends from the nose to rear of canopy where RLM 75 starts.)
To back this up there are 3 Colour photos, Page 259 10 o'clock far away shot.
Page 260, 1 o'clock and 12 o'clock.
Spinner Black with white spiral and prop blades RLM 70 Black Green.

National markings, Fuselage- B5 600mm white outline cross and H3 530mm black hakenkreuz. Wings Upper - B6 910mm white outline cross. Lower B1b 900mm Black crosses.
Hope this helps.

Ιs it possible to have a look at these photos? I will receive the Vol 1 end of March.

so....I cant wait so long for painting!!!

I would appreciate it!!

 

[akonti]

Hallo Akonti,

I'm afraid you got me wrong a bit.Simply the names of RLM84 and RLM99 are incorrect.These names were used in 80's to call new identified colours that were used for painting of Luftwaffe planes.But these aren't listed on RLM files.

As I said the colour named "RLM99" was a preservative for parts of plane structure that were unvisible from outside.So it wasn't used for outside painting of fuselage,wings etc... rather.

But the colour so-called RLM84 is something different.It was a paint which was used for outside aircraft painting.And this colour was like the "Sky type S" or "Duck Egg Blue".Have you seen these colours? For sure yes.These have yellow-green tonality.Therefore it's more likely that the fuselage of Black3 was painted with the paint but not "RLM99" and had the yellow-green tonality insted of the one which we can see in the A profile.

I agree the camo of Black3 is quite unik but there were some planes painted with the colours for instance: Fw190D-9 of I/JG2 White15 Werk nr.600651 at Merzhausen airfield in December 1944.Often,the camo pattern was called "technical".The 3-view profile of the Black3 you can find in AJ-Press book "Painting and marking Luftwaffe 1935-45" vol.4 by Robert Michulec.


There some Fedaral Standard numbers for "RLM84" : FS 34432, FS 34554, FS 34583-FS 34672

Taking all mentioned above things into consideration I think that the Black3 had its fuselage painted like the B profile shows.Certainly if you like the A profile there is no problem, you can paint your model with the paint of that tonality.It's up to you only.What is more ,at the end of WW2 Luftwaffe had many truobles with almost all ( fuel,ammo, bombs ) also with paints,so there is possiblility that the fuselage of Black3 could be painted like A profile shows.But I believe that it was like in the B one.

regards,

Dear Wurger,

I understand. You are sufficient!!! TNX once again for your interesting!

 

[Wurger]

You are welcome mate.