Thumpalumpacus
Major
Yeah, USN AA was pretty miserable at that point in the war, two-and-a-half months into our American involvement. I think that's pretty understandable given the state of technology at the time.
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The battle off Bougainville (Feb 20 1942) is a particularly interesting one, in terms of looking at USN 5in AA performance. USN CAP reported the 5in AA fire from the USN TF was almost completely ineffective, and Lundstrom notes only two IJN bombers were damaged and/or downed by close range AA but only after the bombers had been damaged by CAP, yet the USN awarded 6 confirmed AA kills. The USN CAP made 15 kill claims and SBDs several more, so against 17 bombers the USN awarded 6 AA kills, despite ~17 CAP kill claims!
When someone makes the statement 'stopped cold' it implies that all or a large part of the attackers were shot down and that the survivors aborted the mission. That very rarely happened.No, he only mentioned Lexington initially, and then later clarified that it was before Coral Sea.
I'm aware that that attack wasn't "stopped cold", which is why I posted numbers showing that. I only mentioned it because I though that might be the attack Rob was thinking of -- which seems to be the case, even if he didn't remember it so clearly. Shit, I'd forget my butt if it wasn't stuck on my back.
Anyway, hope that helps.
Aircooled engines like the R1830 can be quite economical in a low power cruise, but they consume far more fuel in rated power climbs and at or near full throttle than a liquid cooled Merlin. At Midway, 4 June 1942, 10 F4F-4s flew escort on Hornet's SBDs. During their entire flight they used low power cruise settings and they never encountered enemy aircraft. All ten ditched in an average of 3.5 hours from TO. Based upon fuel consumption charts the actual endurance difference between a Sea Hurricane 1B and an F4F-4 or a folding wing Martlet II (F4F-4A) or a Martlet IV (F4F-4B) is about 30min, if they fly a similar mission profile.
The Sea Hurricane IB had a very low accident rate. During PQ18, not a single SH1B was lost due to deck landing accidents when flying off a ~18 knot CVE (HMS Avenger). You can see the data card for the SH1B here: https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/...E5BF3YF3Z06CJCJM/image-asset.jpeg?format=750w
The Merlin III could reduce fuel consumption to ~16-20 Imperial GPH and this would give it an endurance of 4 to 5 hours during loiter operations although prolonged operation below 1900rpm was not recommended. At 17000ft at 1900rpm fuel consumption was 23 IGPH.
The SH1B had a much higher power to weight ratio than the F4F-4 and it's folding wing variants and it's combat climb performance in FPM was about twice that of the F4F-4. Even the Fulmar II could climb with an F4F-4 to 10K ft or so when using the combat rating of the engine. In Jan 1942 the Fulmar II's Merlin 30 was given approval for 16lb boost and over 1500hp! USN testing of the F4F-4 revealed extremely poor climb rates, even using full military power during the entire climb:
IMHO, the Sea Hurricane only gets a bad rep because DK Brown, the test pilot was in love with the Martlet, but it appears that he's remembering the fixed wing Martlet 1 or 2, not the folding wing variants with armour and self sealing tanks that weighed 1000 to 500lbs more than the early variants.
1. No I didn't. Re-read Post # 355.1. He did specify Coral Sea.
2. I reviewed the Feb 20 attack and I disagree that the Beattys were stopped "stone cold". Four bombers out of nine in the first wave and four bombers out of eight in the second wave completed their bombing runs. The fact that they caused no damage was due to the bombing method. Level bombing never worked on warships in the open sea.
Also, maybe not having any?The biggest problem with the British Martlets is that the US didn't give them enough of them quickly enough, and the reasons for that seem to be a mix of British and US decisions.
What are you replying too with this statement?:I don't think that is true at all. I know you love your British aircraft, but the consensus among the British naval officers, pilots (not just Eric Brown by any means) and others, was clearly that the Sea Hurricane, while helpful in an extreme pinch (ala Cam Ships and early carrier action) was not appropriate at all as a naval aircraft, and it was mainly due to lack of range. There are quotes almost exclusively from Royal Navy and Fleet Air Arm personnel all over that site, and to be found in many other places. Almost no commentary on this by the Americans, incidentally, it's all British or Commonwealth, all pretty much saying the same thing, which is also very clear from the combat record.
Hurricanes also performed very poorly against Japanese fighters (both A6M and Ki-43). It was pretty weak against Bf 109s or MC 202s as well but those were often kept out of the fight due to range. A Hurricane could certainly cope with a Bf 110 or Ju 88C.
The Martlet wasn't as fantastic as Eric Brown thought, I'm sure, and it wasn't the kind of beast that the Hellcat clearly was, but it was a better fighter than all of the other FAA fighters until maybe arguably the Firefly or maybe some of the later model Seafires,
There was certainly an issue with the Wildcat / Martlet that the early peppy fixed wing models (especially from the French and Greek orders) weren't adequately protected, and the later six gun model was clearly too heavy. But it was still better than a Sea Hurricane, it still had much better range, and it could apparently contend with both Japanese and German land based fighters. By the time the FM2 (a little too late) came out this seems to have been sorted out by more powerful rated engine and removing two of the guns again (I don't think they ever really needed six guns).
The biggest problem with the British Martlets is that the US didn't give them enough of them quickly enough, and the reasons for that seem to be a mix of British and US decisions.
I don't think that is true at all.
Grumman only built 324 Wildcats in 1941. This was after 106 in 1940.The biggest problem with the British Martlets is that the US didn't give them enough of them quickly enough, and the reasons for that seem to be a mix of British and US decisions.
When someone makes the statement 'stopped cold' it implies that all or a large part of the attackers were shot down and that the survivors aborted the mission. That very rarely happened.
I don't doubt that opinions regarding the Sea Hurricane 1B varied, but at the same time, cherry picking criticisms of the SH1B isn't helpful either. IMHO, the lack of folding wings was the SH1B's biggest flaw, and not it's range, endurance, or performance or overall suitability for carrier operations. It certainly seems to have had a very low operational (non-combat) loss rate.
Fact: The SH1B has a much higher power to weight ratio and lower wing loading than an F4F-4 or folding wing Martlet
Fact: The SH1B has a much higher climb rate than F4F-4 and FW Martlet.
Fact: The Merlin III is more economical during rated power climbs than an F4F-4 and USN testing shows that the SH1B will outclimb the F4F-4 at SH1B's rated power climb even when the F4F-4 is using full military power; this is to be expected, all things considered.
USMC F4F-4s suffered severely at Midway even though they were scrambled in good time to get the bounce on the IJN, whereas at Ceylon the Hurricanes were largely caught during TO or at low altitude by greater numbers of fighters than were present at Midway. USN F4F-4s were also severely handled when caught at a disadvantage during their first encounter at Guadalcanal on Aug 7 1942 when 9 F4F-4s were lost, but the F4F-4s were seldom caught at a disadvantage because USN radar and Australian coast watchers typically prevented that from happening.
We know from USN experience that the claimed ~6hr endurance in an FW Martlet or F4F-4 isn't even close to the endurance achieved by USN pilots even when flying for endurance. The FAA data card for the Martlet IV (F4F-4B) card shows an endurance of only 3.4 hrs at loiter power:
which is inline with USN experience at Midway. Loiter endurance with allowance for combat was only 2.1 hrs.
Grumman only built 324 Wildcats in 1941. This was after 106 in 1940.
They would build 1470 in 1942 but 664 of those were built in Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec.
How much of this was due to problems with the P & W 2 stage engines I don't know.
By the end of 1941 Grumman had put 3/4 different engines in production Wildcats/Martlets.
You had the Wright powered Marlet I, the single stage R-1830 engines used in the F4F-3A and the Martlet II & III and the two stage R-1830s in the F4F-4.
How much difference there was between the R-1830-76 and the R-1830-86 I don't know.
The whole reason behind the F4F-3A was that P & W could not supply the two stage engines fast enough.
As far as giving Martlets to the British fast enough, in Dec 1941 the US had a total of 181 F4F-3s and 65 F4F-3As, most if not all without self sealing tanks and armor(?)
By the end of Dec the USN had a total of five F4F-4s with folding wings.
Jan 21st 1942 is when the deal between General motors and Grumman and the government is set up. But it is not until April 18th 1942 that Eastern Aircraft gets the contract for 1800 FM-1 fighters.
Don't know where or when any extra Wildcats are to come from.
It doesn't matter who cherry picked, the point is that the SH1B is unfairly maligned.Who cherry picked? I just opened armored carriers up and looked up Sea Hurricane. That's what it said because that was the preponderance of opinion. Take it up with the RN and FAA officers who actually fought the war.
I don't necessarily disagree, though that also depends on equipment and loadout. F4F went up heavier in part because it carried more fuel. It won't necessarily have all that fuel still in it once it engages, but it will affect initial climb.
Maybe that's true but it didn't prevent a Martlet from having half again or twice the range and loiter time.
All Allied fighters, pretty much, had a fairly tough time with the excellent Japanese A6M and Ki-43 fighters, and even against Ki-27s, in the early months of the Pacific War and in China. But they were able to figure out tactics to make Wildcats and P-40s, and even to some extent P-39s effective against them and by say mid 1942, they were basically at parity. You can't say this for any version of the Hurricane or Sea Hurricane, and I don't see Wildcats getting slaughtered the way Hurricanes did at Ceylon or in Burma.
At Midway the Japanese lost 42 aircraft in Air Combat, then another 219 when their carriers went down - 292 in total. The US lost at total or 145, some of which went down with the Yorktown. As we know, Midway was a major US victory.
At Ceylon the Japanese lost 7 aircraft (I think it was 6 Vals and 1 Zero), the FAA lost 26, including 16 Hurricanes, 4 Fulmars, and 6 Swordfish that blundered into the fight. Fighter for fighter it was 20-1. That ain't good.
Maybe something like a Thach weave could have worked with Hurricanes or Sea Hurricanes, but if it was tried I haven't heard about it.
I think that depends on things like external fuel tanks, as was previously noted upthread. They also limited loiter time in some cases in the FAA due to pilot endurance. "Only" 3.4 hours ior even 2.1 s still much longer than the Sea Hurricane's 1 hour. The Sea Hurricane was a converted land based interceptor which was turned into basically a point defense fighter for freighters and then Carriers, not a proper naval fighter. That is a FACT.
The Wildcat started heavier. A crap load heavier.I don't necessarily disagree, though that also depends on equipment and loadout. F4F went up heavier in part because it carried more fuel. It won't necessarily have all that fuel still in it once it engages, but it will affect initial climb.
Not if you compare the same things. You don't get twice the range/loiter time on only 30-40% more fuel.Maybe that's true but it didn't prevent a Martlet from having half again or twice the range and loiter time.
Maybe if the Sea Hurricane wasn't dragging and anchor behind it."Only" 3.4 hours ior even 2.1 s still much longer than the Sea Hurricane's 1 hour.
You mean like the SHIBs during Operation Pedestal? Where they successfully defended the convoy against a far greater scale of attack than that faced by any of the USN carrier TFs during 1942. The losses to the convoy only occurred after the RN carriers were forced to turn back due to the Sicilian Narrows. During the last day's Axis attacks the SH1Bs were contending with massed raids escorted by Axis fighters. The SH1Bs were allotted the high altitude CAP duties due to their superior climb rate.Point defense is good enough to drive away an FW 200, but it's not good enough to contend with strikes from Ju 87s or Ju 88s escorted by Bf 109s, or SM.79s escorted by MC 202s, let alone D3A and B5N escorted by A6Ms which fortunately they didn't have to face very much.
But IIRC Hurricane pilots were still having serious problems with Ki-43s in 1944.
Thank you. The Sea Hurricane data cards are not at wwiiaircraftperformance.Read the data cards carefully as there's a lot of info there that can be analysed to make an accurate comparison.
You mean like the SHIBs during Operation Pedestal? Where they successfully defended the convoy against a far greater scale of attack than that faced by any of the USN carrier TFs during 1942.
The losses to the convoy only occurred after the RN carriers were forced to turn back due to the Sicilian Narrows. During the last day's Axis attacks the SH1Bs were contending with massed raids escorted by Axis fighters. The SH1Bs were allotted the high altitude CAP duties due to their superior climb rate.
The Wildcat started heavier. A crap load heavier.
An F4F-3 with armor and self sealing tanks went 7150lbs and that is with 300rpg and 110 US gallons (92.6 imp) of internal fuel.
Or about what a Hurricane IIA weighed.
The wing went up about 290lbs between the F4F-3 and the F4F-4, in part because of the fold, impart because of the added gun bay/s (this does not include the weight of the guns, just the structure). They pulled out 90lbs worth of floatation gear but empty weight of went up about 350lbs.
The F4F-3 could carry 147 US gallons of fuel and here is where I am running into a problem. The capacity of fuel seems to change between US specifications and British specifications.
British data sheets often say 136imp gallons of fuel which would be over 160 US gallons according to standard conversions. and more than an F4F-3 held without protected tanks?
Somebody kept copying the early data when filling out the new data sheets?
Not if you compare the same things. You don't get twice the range/loiter time on only 30-40% more fuel.
Maybe if the Sea Hurricane wasn't dragging and anchor behind it.
A Land Hurricane MK IIA was supposed to fly 500 miles, no reserves, no combat allowance but at 20,000ft and using 29 gallons to start, take-off and climb to 20,000ft.
At most economical that would take over 2 hours.
Now somehow the Wildcat II (that is what the data card says) with it it's range of 795 miles (on 133 Imp gallons of internal fuel?) has a loiter time of 3.95 hours !!!!!!!
Please note that the Wildcat II is supposed to have used up 25 gallons taking off and getting to 15,000ft. With combat allowance it is supposed to have an endurance of 2.6 hours.
BTW the Land Hurricane IIA (best case) is faster, climbs much better and has a take off run to 50 ft almost 2/3s that of the Wildcat. Obviously the carrier equipment would cut into that.
One attack alone included 37 'outdated' JU-88's escorted by 21 '1930's' ME-109F's.You are right though Sea Hurricanes fending off a mismatch of 1930s vintage German bombers and Italian converted airliners and seaplanes is for more pivotal than Coral Sea, Midway, and the battle of Leyte Gulf. You just need to let the world know about this glorious triumph! There is a nasty rumor that Pedastal was a catastrophe for the Royal Navy in spite of the feeble opposition they faced.
One attack alone included 37 'outdated' JU-88's escorted by 21 '1930's' ME-109F's.
Before that on the same day at noon 50 Italian SM.84 and SM.79 torpedo bombers attacked with 8 CR-42 biplanes
and 38 '1940' CR.202 and RE.2001 fighters. All seen off with one merchant ship hit.
The Axis forces had at their disposal over 750 combat aircraft including 353 Stuka and JU-88 bombers - all 1930's vintage so
nothing to worry about of course. Add in 94 medium bombers of other types and 90 torpedo bombers plus 247 fighters for
escort while you are at it.