Do 335

[stona]

I don't really want to get to embroiled in the trials and tribulations of engine production. The supply of engines was not what had been anticipated and I don't think anybody is contesting that.
My issue isssues with your statement are.

1 Henschel did not have the power to cancel any RLM program at one of their facilities, only the RLM did.

2 Henschel was putting off conversion to Me 410 production by reporting that it was still tied up with production of other types, to other RLM orders. This was accepted by the ministry.

3 I can't find any reference to a cancellation of the decision to have Henschel produce the Me 410. It may well be that the shortage of engines contributed to the failure of this program, but as far as I can tell it was never cancelled.
Someone might well come up with some reference or document to show that it was cancelled, in which case I will gladly defer

This may seem to be pedantic but many people with less access to resources read statements like yours and could easily draw completely wrong conclusions from it, at least in the absence of evidence to the contrary.

Cheers

Steve

 

[l'Omnivore Sobriquet]

A hell of an elevator, for heavy gear...
Horizontaly quite a thing too.
The best cruiser around.
And of course that directional instability at high speed, not mentioned in this forum strangely, that kept stakes at an excitng level.

[Bombed out by the RAF heavies, it should be noted.]

 

[OldSkeptic]

I never understood why the 210 was such a disaster and the 410, though better, still had its issues. They had already designed the excellent (though not as a day fighter) 110.

Manufacturers, of all sides, were knocking out good twins, of all types and size, all over the place. So you just have to wonder what happened at Messerschmitt. Very strange.

 

[stona]

Prof Willy Messerschmitt.

After the first flight of V1 Wurster said that the fuselage should be a metre longer. Messerschmitt replied that he wasn't about to throw the jigs away.

Despite a report from Mtt, E-Stelle suggesting an problem with the wing profile, Messerschmitt reported that the handling of the prototypes was in order, comparing it with the Bf 100C. He also wrote that stall handling characteristics were satisfactory with or without leading edge slats and that it was up to the E-Stelle to decide if they should be deleted.
To improve the rear field of fire production models should have the single fin and rudder provisionally fitted to V2 and standard from V5 onwards.

On 5th September 1940 Wendel was forced to bail out of V2. Porpoising caused a vibration whicheventually led to disintegration of horizontal stabilisers. This was a further demonstration that the rear fuselage boom was too short and structurally too weak.

On 19th December 1940 Me 210 V9, supposedly the production prototype is flown by the E-Stelle (Rechlin) and reported to stall when flown in a steep bank in a dirty configuration. It is very unstable around the pitch axis. In a fly off with a Bf 110 it was found that the Bf 110 recovered far better from separation of the airflow.

5th June 1941. Messerschmitt are asked to eliminate the following problems.

1 The Me 210 oscillates in its vertical axis making accurate sighting when firing difficult.

2 The power driven elevators should be replaced with an internally balanced system

3 The tendency to veer during take off and landing must be eliminated by lengthening the fuselage

4 The recent engine fires with the DB 601 need to be clarified and eliminated with the help of Daimler Benz.

5 The DB designed supercharger intake screen must be modified for aerodynamic reasons.

6 The instability in the vertical axis caused by deploying the dive brakes must be eliminated.

7 The automatic dive recovery system does not meet expectations.

Messerschmitt had built a dog, but most worryingly most of the major problems had existed and been known for well over a year.

On 27th May 1941 Udet wrote his well know letter admonishing Messerschmitt and questioning his entire design philosophy. On 25th June he wrote another complaining about delays and problems with the undercarriage on the Me 210. He concluded.

"All these unnecessary annoyances and unacceptable time delays of late compel me once again to apply a tougher scale for reviewing your new types and to instruct my officers accordingly. In the future I ask that you keep them fully informed so that close cooperation will avoid any further situations of a similar nature."

In November 1941 Erprobungskommando 210 receives 16 Me 210 A-1s. It reports that whilst experienced pilots quickly come to terms with the aircraft's unique features new pilots have considerable difficulty. Particular caution is needed when dealing with the aircraft's tendency to veer on take off (which has obviously not been fixed). Flight characteristics and performance are as good as or better than the Bf 110.

On 12th December 1941, at the RLM, the results of an investigation at Messerschmitt are reported. It is the opinion of Dipl.Ing. Frydag, Major Storp and Major Peterson that the Me 210 is a viable aircraft. Peterson emphasises that the fuselage must be lengthened. A timetable for various modifications at Messerschmitt's expense is discussed.

10th February 1942, first reports from units operating the Me 210 are extremely critical. A month later I.ZG/1 reports that in the week 3rd March to 9th March one aircraft was damaged taxying, eight have crashed landed, three have crashed on training flights. Many crashes are the result of young or inexperienced pilots who find themselves in a flat spin.

At a meeting at Karinhall on 6th March 1942 Jeschonnek is recorded saying.

"The Me 210 in its current configuration can't be imposed on the crews. It goes into a flat spin quite easily and the reason has not yet been found. Then there are serious problems with the engine installation. Twice now engines have broken free in flight. Crews have died when the aircraft noses over on the ground. It is extremely questionable whether the Me 210 can enter operations this spring. For its intended role the plane is entirely unsuited in its current configuration."

Milch (who has now replaced Udet) replied that

"Prof Messerschmitt wants to try lengthening the types fuselage to make it operationally ready."

It will not escape the sharp eyed that this was first suggested in September 1939!

Following a meeting with Goering on 10th March a Memorandum (GL/C-B2) was sent to Messerschmit on 12th March halting any further construction of the Me 210, effective immediately.

Thus ended episode one of the saga.

Cheers

Steve

 

[OldSkeptic]

Thanks Steve, what a debacle.

 

[tomo pauk]

Fine post indeed. Too bad some people here don't start the blog or something.

 

[stona]

It is a debacle but the Me 210 was far from dead.

Despite considering ditching the Me 210 for the Ar 440 a 1st April 1942 re-start date is considered for the Me 210 program in the same memorandum that had halted production!

Messerschmitt are ordered to modify six aircraft with a lengthened fuselage, slats, internally balanced elevators, autopilot to a zerstorer configuration but without armour for a rapid testing program.
Another ten are to be similarly modified complete with armour for an extended series of tests at Rechlin.
The deadline for this is 16th March 1942. Willy Messerschmitt agreed to this despite being aware that it was unrealistic and impossible.

25th March 1942, Messerschmitt, a man battling to keep the project alive, writes to Test Center Director Franke.

"You are certainly aware that the field is having problems with the Me 210 and that, contrary to all expectations, these are mainly attributable to stalling."

Talk about economical with the truth! He continued.

"The defects already known (ground looping on landing, unpleasant handling of the elevators) have been taken into consideration by lengthening the fuselage and fitting a counterbalanced elevator, both of which were approved by the test centre and, after just a few flights, were considered satisfactory by both the field and the test centre. The remaining criticisms of the landing gear (hydraulics, weapons etc) are fundamentally engineering issues and can be remedied in the near future."

14th April 1942 Oberst Vorvald reports to Milch that the 6 Me 210 test examples are not finished and will not be finished by Messeschmitt until 20th April. The delay is caused by an increase in the number of changes required from 4 to 40.

Makes me wonder what exactly Willy was basing the assertions in his earlier letter on, at least one aircraft was presumably modified, at least partially.

19th April 1942. Milch states that "the Me 210 will no longer be a significant player in 1942." He doubts whether it will ever go into production. Everything depends on the test programmes and series production can't start until four months after completion of the programme.

21st April 1942. Milch reports that the Me 210 is to be dropped from production programmes on the express orders of the Reichsmarshall. The 16 test examples are to be completed and tested. All further work to cease immediately.
The Gotha and Luther companies are to be withdrawn from the Me 210 license building programme for good.
The air attache at the Hungarian Consulate is to be officially informed that Me 210 production is frozen "for technical reasons".

Messerschmitt is officially informed of this decision, by the RLM, on 25th April 1942.

At this time 94 Me 210s had been completed at Augsburg and another 258 at Regensburg. At both plants a total of 540 Me 210s were at various stages of construction. Materials for large scale series production had already been delivered to the plants. Close to 4,000 employees were left standing around with nothing to do.
It is almost inconceivable that such a state of affairs was allowed to develop at such a crucial stage of the war. 1942 is often seen as a turning point, not least due to the faltering campaign in the east and then the debacle at Stalingrad later in the year. A situation like this in the aircraft industry, as the Anglo-Americans geared up for their massive aerial assault on the Reich can hardly have helped.

Another swipe of the axe, and thus ended the second episode of the saga.

The Me 210 was still not dead though.

Cheers

Steve

 

[davebender]

Fw-187 was production ready by 1940.
Historical flight tests suggest the aircraft was largely free of technical flaws needing to be fixed.
Aerial performance was outstanding.
Range / endurance was outstanding.
Firepower with four nose mounted cannon outstanding.
Mass production cost was reasonable.
Can be powered by any version of DB601 or DB605 engine. Performance improves as more powerful engine versions enter production.
Easily adaptable to long range photo recon role. Survivable enough to go where most recon aircraft cannot.

With an existing twin engine fighter aircraft this good there's little incentive to pour money into a new tandem engine fighter program. Place the Fw-187 into mass production and call the job done.

 

[stona]

Since the Fw 187 was finally and irrevocably axed from all RLM programs well before a design for the Do 335 was even submitted, let alone an order made, I don't really see the point of your post.

There are several threads about the Fw 187 already and none amount to more than "what ifs". I don't see any reason to start another one.

Cheers

Steve

 

[GrauGeist]

Not sure why the Fw187 keeps creeping in everywhere...it wasn't all that great in terms of fighting ability. Sure it, was reported to have made some impressive high-speed runs, but that was clean. Operationally speaking, it was capable of 329mph (529kph) in combat configuration. The Fw187 also suffered skin buckling issues and was plagued with over-heating.

For a twin, the better option would have been to pursue the Ar240 (later V series) as it had a higher max-ceiling and a higher rated max speed at 345mph (555kph). Additionally, the Ar240 was capable of multi-roles whereas the Fw187 would have been limited to a gun platform. The handling and overheating problems that plagued V1 were corrected on V2 and the following airframes performed very well, even in light of the high wing loading.

If the Do335 wasn't considered as a replacement for the Bf110, the Ar240 should have been.

 

[davebender]

Ju-88G. Everything I have read suggests it was a fantastic night fighter aircraft.

 

[stona]

If the Do335 wasn't considered as a replacement for the Bf110, the Ar240 should have been.

It was. It was seriously considered as a substitute for the Me 210 when that project was in the doldrums. I can give some references for this (not now ). I think the Ar 240 was a little unlucky.
Cheers
Steve

 

[stona]

Ju-88G. Everything I have read suggests it was a fantastic night fighter aircraft.
View attachment 247398

The problem is that the RLM was looking for what we would now call a MRCA. It was trying to rationalise several types in one aircraft. This was the final death knell for your beloved Fw 187. The Ju 88/188 was certainly a serious contender.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Denniss]

The Fw187 also suffered skin buckling issues and was plagued with over-heating.

No skin-buckling and overheating issues in Fw 187 with standard cooling systems. Please do not repeat old myths.

 

[GrauGeist]

So you're going to tell me that the fastest version, the V6, did not suffer surface distortion at all?

The Fw187 was NOT perfect, the first two versions (V1 and V2) crashed and the program was beset with problems, including frustrations from over-heating.

 

[davebender]

That's ok as long as you don't carry it too far.

Ju-88/Ju-188 was a great light/dive bomber, recon aircraft, torpedo bomber and night fighter.

Fw-187 was a great long range day fighter and recon aircraft.

Me-110 tried to be good at everything and ended up great at nothing. Luftwaffe should have figured this out by 1941 and dumped the Zerstorer concept in the trash bin.

 

[Milosh]

So you're going to tell me that the fastest version, the V6, did not suffer surface distortion at all?

The Fw187 was NOT perfect, the first two versions (V1 and V2) crashed and the program was beset with problems, including frustrations from over-heating.

Not to be considered a Fw187 fanboy, but many prototypes crashed. The P-47 for example.

 

[nuuumannn]

Fw-187 was a great long range day fighter and recon aircraft.

Don't you mean "Fw 187 might have been a great long range day fighter and recon aircraft"?

 

[wuzak]

Fw-187 was potentially a good long range day fighter and recon aircraft.

Fixed that for you Dave.

The Fw 187 could not in any way be considered great - it was very much unproven.

 

[stona]

I don't think everyone has a concept of the chaos that reigned at the RLM during this period. There is a surviving report from 12th March '42 which refers to the meeting between Milch, Goering and others about the Me 210 on Goering's train on the 9th March.

"The Reichsmarschall condemns in the strongest terms the premature stoppage of the Bf 110, Ju 87 and Ju 88 in favour of the Me 210.
As a result he will bring three men from the GL (Generalluftzeugmeister Luftwaffe) Division on charges before a military tribunal."

It is clear that the RLM was looking for one aircraft to carry out multiple roles or they wouldn't be considering the cancellation of those three types.
It is also clear that Goering was more than a little miffed about the Me 210 debacle.

Messerschmitt was very out of favour. On 21st March Milch described the Me 321, in an official document, as "a fraud".

The Fw 187 and Ar 240 were considered specifically as Zerstorer as late as 18th August 1942. Both were discounted.

Cheers

Steve