Do 335
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They probably should have.
The zerstorer concept did develop from its original form to the point that by 1942 it effectively meant heavy fighter. It's no accident that ever heavier weapons were being fitted. As early as October 1942 Milch was exploring the fitting of 3.7, 5 and 7.5 cm cannon to heavy fighters and bombers. The intended target then was tanks and armoured vehicles but it was an obvious adaptation for a bomber destroyer.
The Flak 18, Flak 43 and 5cm KWK were all fitted to the Me 410, something way beyond the capability of the Fw 187 airframe.
Cheers
Steve
davebender
1st Lieutenant
That doesn't necessarily mean Me-110 program should have been immediately cancelled. However during 1941 it should have been reclassified as a night fighter and recon aircraft. No more nonsense about day fighter capability.
With day fighter mission dropped (from Me-110) RLM would be forced to consider a replacement for long range bomber escort and Me-210 light bomber won't cut it anymore then Me-110 night fighter aircraft.
With day fighter mission dropped (from Me-110) RLM would be forced to consider a replacement for long range bomber escort and Me-210 light bomber won't cut it anymore then Me-110 night fighter aircraft.
Historically Pelz didn't want the Me 210/410 as a fast bomber, a role forced on it for political reasons. Galland did want it as a heavy fighter and bomber destroyer.
Cheers
Steve
- Thread starter
- #85
That is most interesting. After experiences with heavy fighters during the BOB.
It is important to emphasise the different mission Galland was envisaging. This was not an offensive campaign like the BoB but rather a defensive action against the various USAAFs. Most of these discussions took place in the latter part of 1943 and the resultant plans would be rendered obsolete by the arrival in numbers of the P-51 shortly thereafter.
On 12th November 1943, at the RLM, Milch reports that due to the demands of Hitler and Goering's orders only 10-15 Me 410s per month can be delivered as zerstorer. The rest must go to Oberst Pelz in order to follow the Fuhrer's order to attack England.
Milch wants to petition Goering to produce more heavy fighters. [By this time zerstorer and heavy fighter are used interchangeably at the RLM].
The General der Kamfflieger (Pelz) places no value in the Me 410 and would much prefer the Ju 88 S.
The Me 410 is not expected to leave the production line as a zerstorer until mid 1944 and then it is to be produced in lightened form with the armament that Galland has called for.
A Erprobungskommando 25 action report later that month re-iterates the same.
Galland is on the record as saying he would like all the zerstorer version with the streamlined canopy and "G-supercharger". I'd have to check what he meant by G-supercharger. He wanted to establish a Geschwader of Me 410s equipped with the 5cm gun as bomber destroyers.
At the same time Pelz stated that he did not want the Me 410 but preferred the Ju 88 S. He felt that the Me 410 was being forced on him due to a lack of the Junkers bomber.
Milch chipped in saying that he considered the Me 410, now fixed, to be a fantastic heavy fighter.
The plan is to replace the Me 410 with the Do 335. The Do 335 is to be the fast bomber, heavy day fighter and reconnaissance aircraft. The Do 335 is also discussed as a potential night fighter as the Me 262s range is considered inadequate.
As a result the number of Me 410s to be built by Dornier is kept open in order not to compromise Do 335 production. If some resources are freed up by cancellation of the He 219 [which was presumably discussed] then these are to be channelled into the Do 335.
Cheers
Steve
On 12th November 1943, at the RLM, Milch reports that due to the demands of Hitler and Goering's orders only 10-15 Me 410s per month can be delivered as zerstorer. The rest must go to Oberst Pelz in order to follow the Fuhrer's order to attack England.
Milch wants to petition Goering to produce more heavy fighters. [By this time zerstorer and heavy fighter are used interchangeably at the RLM].
The General der Kamfflieger (Pelz) places no value in the Me 410 and would much prefer the Ju 88 S.
The Me 410 is not expected to leave the production line as a zerstorer until mid 1944 and then it is to be produced in lightened form with the armament that Galland has called for.
A Erprobungskommando 25 action report later that month re-iterates the same.
Galland is on the record as saying he would like all the zerstorer version with the streamlined canopy and "G-supercharger". I'd have to check what he meant by G-supercharger. He wanted to establish a Geschwader of Me 410s equipped with the 5cm gun as bomber destroyers.
At the same time Pelz stated that he did not want the Me 410 but preferred the Ju 88 S. He felt that the Me 410 was being forced on him due to a lack of the Junkers bomber.
Milch chipped in saying that he considered the Me 410, now fixed, to be a fantastic heavy fighter.
The plan is to replace the Me 410 with the Do 335. The Do 335 is to be the fast bomber, heavy day fighter and reconnaissance aircraft. The Do 335 is also discussed as a potential night fighter as the Me 262s range is considered inadequate.
As a result the number of Me 410s to be built by Dornier is kept open in order not to compromise Do 335 production. If some resources are freed up by cancellation of the He 219 [which was presumably discussed] then these are to be channelled into the Do 335.
Cheers
Steve
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davebender
1st Lieutenant
When was 1,000kg bomb bay incorporated into the aircraft design? That will tell us when Me-210 became a light bomber.
I probably didn't write that very well 
I meant that it was due to Hitler's insistence on bombing England that Pelz had the Me 410 forced on him as a fast bomber. He really didn't like or want it in this role and was prepared to say so on several occasions.
The Me 210 had been intended to have a bombing capacity from the outset. As early as November 1938, before the type had even flown, plans were being made to equip 7 of 16 proposed heavy fighter wings and 8 dive bomber wings with the Me 210. The dive bomber wings would initially be Ju 87 equipped but by April 1942 all these wings were to be Me 210 equipped.
The Me 210 had dive brakes (which caused serious stability issues) and a dive recovery system (which didn't work very well) as standard.
If only they'd known what a dog they were investing in!
Cheers
Steve
I meant that it was due to Hitler's insistence on bombing England that Pelz had the Me 410 forced on him as a fast bomber. He really didn't like or want it in this role and was prepared to say so on several occasions.
The Me 210 had been intended to have a bombing capacity from the outset. As early as November 1938, before the type had even flown, plans were being made to equip 7 of 16 proposed heavy fighter wings and 8 dive bomber wings with the Me 210. The dive bomber wings would initially be Ju 87 equipped but by April 1942 all these wings were to be Me 210 equipped.
The Me 210 had dive brakes (which caused serious stability issues) and a dive recovery system (which didn't work very well) as standard.
If only they'd known what a dog they were investing in!
Cheers
Steve
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 3,954
- Jun 25, 2013
I probably didn't write that very well
I meant that it was due to Hitler's insistence on bombing England that Pelz had the Me 410 forced on him as a fast bomber. He really didn't like or want it in this role and was prepared to say so on several occasions.
The Me 210 had been intended to have a bombing capacity from the outset. As early as November 1938, before the type had even flown, plans were being made to equip 7 of 16 proposed heavy fighter wings and 8 dive bomber wings with the Me 210. The dive bomber wings would initially be Ju 87 equipped but by April 1942 all these wings were to be Me 210 equipped.
The Me 210 had dive brakes (which caused serious stability issues) and a dive recovery system (which didn't work very well) as standard.
If only they'd known what a dog they were investing in!
Cheers
Steve
Overall, I think we can all be glad that the RLM's relationship with Messerschmidt was cozy enough for them to permit resources to be wasted on such a dog for so long.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Ju-88A dive bomber worked just fine and it was in mass production by 1940. It wasn't obsolete by 1942. In fact Ju-88 could be upgraded with BMW801, DB603 or Jumo 213 engines just as Me-210 was upgraded with more powerful engines.
Ordering development of Me-210 dive bomber during 1938 makes sense as Ju-88 had yet to prove itself. However the program should have been declared redundant and cancelled during 1940. Shift development resources into a purpose built long range day fighter aircraft. If RLM doesn't like Fw-187 then kick the long range Me-309 program into high gear.
It was compromised by the Me 210 debacle.
I'll try and list the salient points without writing an essay!
In mid November 1943, during a meeting, Goering asked Messerschmitt why he had not come directly to him with the matter of delayed deliveries of the Me 262. Messerschmitt replied that he had been forbidden to do so by Milch.
This led to an enquiry and Seiler gave this account in a sworn affidavit.
There was a discussion in early 1942 between Milch, Seiler (financier) and Croneiss (Mtt. MD) about a shake up in the management of Messerschmitt AG following the Me 210 debacle. Willy Messerschmitt was side lined to the design office and Croneiss would take over the running of the company.
Milch was adamant that Messerschmitt should not be allowed to use his direct contacts with Hitler and Goering as a threat against the men in the Amt at every opportunity and every time he felt he was not getting his own way.
Seiler and Croneiss both promised Milch that they would ensure that Willy Messerschmitt understood that he must "march in step". They did not see any reason for Messerschmitt to visit Hitler or Goering.
Seiler said that on the train back to Regensburg Croneiss suggested telling Messerschmitt that Milch had forbidden him from dealing directly with Goering or talking to Hitler.
Seiler objected to this as Milch had made no such order and anyway, given the tension between he and Croneiss and Messerschmitt such a request would have been ignored.
Seiler was also of the view that it was unhelpful for Prof. Messerschmitt to approach Hitler or Goering by himself as his artistic style prevented him from seeing how things need to be reasonably approached from an industrial standpoint.
Seiler concluded that it was inexcusable that Messerschmitt did not give a personal report to Milch, he was not forbidden to do so. Furthermore he (Seiler) could not fulfil the tasks given to him by Milch whilst Messerschmitt refused to adhere to company discipline.
Milch and Messerschmitt had history from Milch's days at Lufthansa. Despite the reorganisation at Messerschmitt AG and a loss of faith by both Udet and later Milch Messerschmitt always seems to have retained the ear of both Hitler and Goering.
Cheers
Steve
That sounds feasible. Thanks Denniss.
A lot of things were discussed and agreed in Milch's office that never happened for many reasons. Often the reason was Goering, and contrary to myth, he wasn't always wrong
Steve
- Thread starter
- #94
Why bother with the 309? It, too, required the DB 603 to even approach the performance of the 109G, and it has been shown that the 603 wasn't fully reliable until 1943 - then we had the same instability that had plagued the original 210, and for similar reasons - take a look at that short, shallow rear fuselage and tell me that the same design flaws hadn't been repeated.
As Stona has mentioned, http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/do-335-a-38895-5.html#post1072584 Messerschmitt was most reluctant to redesign the 210's rear fuselage - is there any reason to suppose that the same reluctance wouldn't come up with the 309? In addition to all of this the 309 V1 was almost completely outclassed by a 109G in comparative tests: without a complete redesign and a lot more power, an Me 309 faced with a P-51B/C/D would have been toast.
Interestingly enough, the Nowarra's "Die Deutsche Luftrüstung 1933-1945: Band 3" lists the Me-309 as having the DB-603G on-board (a late war engine), even though the 309 was cancelled in 1943. Engiles-language Wikipedia, of course, repeats this verbatim
The Fw-190 always seemed to me like a cool place to bolt the DB-603 on, but that went nowhere until too late. The Fw-190 was also capable to hold additional fuel cells between wing spars, with the outer cannons deleted in that case.
The Fw-190 always seemed to me like a cool place to bolt the DB-603 on, but that went nowhere until too late. The Fw-190 was also capable to hold additional fuel cells between wing spars, with the outer cannons deleted in that case.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Because it carried 770 liters of internal fuel. If Fw-187 (1,300 liters of internal fuel) is not an option then Me-309 is probably the only other choice for a long range German day fighter aircraft.
That was about the only "asset" of the Me 309, otherwise it was a waste of time which would have taken far too long to develop into a halfway decent fighter. By the time a properly developed Me 309 could have reached operational service its long range, and need for extra fuel, would have been wasted in light of Allied air superiority and diminishing fuel reserves. In addition, Tank was developing the Ta 152 series which was far more useful.
wuzak
Captain
Yes, but two very much less powerful engines.
Tha Fw 187A-0 had 700hp engines. The B was to have DB 601s and the C DB 605s. The Me 309 used a 1900hp DB 603.
