Thumpalumpacus
Colonel
More and smaller. When it comes to wildfires, getting there quickly matters.
Do we need bigger amphibian water bombers? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Admiral Beez
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That last article was dated December 2021. They were predicting this updated G-111T would be certified within 18 months and production would start in 2025.And maybe Australia?
Albatross flying boat returns and will be built in NT
Manufacturers Amphibian Aerospace Industries (AAI) said the new generation G-111T is an “incredible aircraft of great and practical use to humanity” because of its huge variety of uses.australianaviation.com.au
A year later they had acquired an old airframe to serve as an engineering prototype with new production variants to begin rolling off the production line "within five years", so by the end of 2027. So already another two years down the line. From a Dec 2022 article:-
"Today's announcement is just the beginning as we are already working on next-generation technologies to produce new variants such as the Zero Emissions Hybrid powered Albatross and even a stretched 44-seat variant."
So already the focus of the project was shifting. By Feb 2024 AAI was claiming it had some orders but wasn't releasing any details. Just how firm were / are they? And as far as I can see as of the end of 2025 nothing has so far emerged from their hangar to even begin the certification process. Re-engineering a 1940s aircraft to meet today's safety standards is not going to be an easy task.
There are numerous seaplane / flying boat / WIGE project proposals that have popped up over the years, but few ever reach reality. That includes resurrecting the PBY Catalina and putting floats on a C-130 Hercules. I read somewhere just yesterday that the various large long range wing in ground effect (WIGE) projects have hit a problem due to "rogue waves", which have now been found to occur more frequently than previously realised.
Feb 2024 article from the Guardian newspaper detailing some of the projects.
Seaplane renaissance - Royal Aeronautical Society
With companies around the world floating the idea of a seaplane comeback, JACK RICHARDSON investigates the candidates hoping to fly from lochs, lakes and oceans in the future.
- Thread starter
- #103
Admiral Beez
Major
Make 'em yuge, paint it gold and it might get White House funding.Do we need bigger amphibian water bombers?
Yes
Why?
'Cos they're freakin' AWESOME
'Nuff said
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I don't see the G-111T going anywhere. I would love to be wrong but I just don't see a market.That last article was dated December 2021. They were predicting this updated G-111T would be certified within 18 months and production would start in 2025.
A year later they had acquired an old airframe to serve as an engineering prototype with new production variants to begin rolling off the production line "within five years", so by the end of 2027. So already another two years down the line. From a Dec 2022 article:-
"Today's announcement is just the beginning as we are already working on next-generation technologies to produce new variants such as the Zero Emissions Hybrid powered Albatross and even a stretched 44-seat variant."
So already the focus of the project was shifting. By Feb 2024 AAI was claiming it had some orders but wasn't releasing any details. Just how firm were / are they? And as far as I can see as of the end of 2025 nothing has so far emerged from their hangar to even begin the certification process. Re-engineering a 1940s aircraft to meet today's safety standards is not going to be an easy task.
There are numerous seaplane / flying boat / WIGE project proposals that have popped up over the years, but few ever reach reality. That includes resurrecting the PBY Catalina and putting floats on a C-130 Hercules. I read somewhere just yesterday that the various large long range wing in ground effect (WIGE) projects have hit a problem due to "rogue waves", which have now been found to occur more frequently than previously realised.
Feb 2024 article from the Guardian newspaper detailing some of the projects.
Seaplane renaissance - Royal Aeronautical Society
With companies around the world floating the idea of a seaplane comeback, JACK RICHARDSON investigates the candidates hoping to fly from lochs, lakes and oceans in the future.www.aerosociety.com
- Thread starter
- #105
Admiral Beez
Major
The US should just license build (or buy) the ShinMaywa US-2. I recall a news article where a fighter pilot was saved after ditching mid Pacific by a US-2 as no rescue helicopter had the necessary range (the US-2 has a range of 4,700 km, equal to 2,300 nmi). Seems like a good option for the USCG if not USN/AF, in addition to the water bomber role.
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- Thread starter
- #106
Admiral Beez
Major
Of course, if you want biggly and yuge, there's the Kawanishi KX-3.
Thumpalumpacus
Colonel
You could always fetch Red Adair and his tractor-mounted Mig-21 engines.
Shortround6
Lieutenant General
Do we need bigger amphibian water bombers?
Probably.
Now how many and at what cost?
The "standard" is now the De Havilland Canadair 515
which is in fact rather antiquated and has a bunch of aerodynamic add-ons.
But trying to resurrect a late 1940s (Grumman) design seems like really looking backwards and the Grumman is about the same size (but lighter) than the Canadair.
Now how much bigger do we want? 50% more water or 100% or ????
Larger may mean more restricted water scooping operations, Larger plane may need more room for approach and departure from the water scooping area/zone.
A larger plane may restrict numbers in the Search and Rescue role although some nations may need the added range/endurance.
The Japanese US-2 is over double the weight of the Canadair and has about 4 times the power.
Funding is the real problem and historically Firefighting aircraft have been on the lowest priority for funding, the need is real but Nations or provinces/states only come up with the money when forced to (30-50 year old aircraft fall apart in mid-air killing crews).
Probably.
Now how many and at what cost?
The "standard" is now the De Havilland Canadair 515
which is in fact rather antiquated and has a bunch of aerodynamic add-ons.
But trying to resurrect a late 1940s (Grumman) design seems like really looking backwards and the Grumman is about the same size (but lighter) than the Canadair.
Now how much bigger do we want? 50% more water or 100% or ????
Larger may mean more restricted water scooping operations, Larger plane may need more room for approach and departure from the water scooping area/zone.
A larger plane may restrict numbers in the Search and Rescue role although some nations may need the added range/endurance.
The Japanese US-2 is over double the weight of the Canadair and has about 4 times the power.
Funding is the real problem and historically Firefighting aircraft have been on the lowest priority for funding, the need is real but Nations or provinces/states only come up with the money when forced to (30-50 year old aircraft fall apart in mid-air killing crews).
We load 10 Tanker with 9800 gallons of retardant in 10 to 15 minutes. Water drops are less effective for the long term effect in most fuel types. They are great if you have crews to immediately take suppression efforts , but water doesn't have the long term effect. We vote for less scoopers more retardant dropping platforms. Just saying....
Attachments
- Thread starter
- #110
Admiral Beez
Major
Canada had better get a wiggle on.
Canada built an iconic wildfire-fighting plane. Can it keep up with demand? | CBC News
"That pressure is already emerging. European aerospace companies and startups, such as Positive Aviation and Kepplair, are racing to develop competing firefighting aircraft. France has taken matters into its own hands as well, retrofitting an A400M military transport aircraft to be able to dump up to 20,000 litres of water or fire retardant. The efforts underscore what Gradek sees as a narrowing window for Canada's only producer of large, water-scooping aircraft. The world is not going to wait for Canada"
Canada built an iconic wildfire-fighting plane. Can it keep up with demand? | CBC News
"That pressure is already emerging. European aerospace companies and startups, such as Positive Aviation and Kepplair, are racing to develop competing firefighting aircraft. France has taken matters into its own hands as well, retrofitting an A400M military transport aircraft to be able to dump up to 20,000 litres of water or fire retardant. The efforts underscore what Gradek sees as a narrowing window for Canada's only producer of large, water-scooping aircraft. The world is not going to wait for Canada"
But does it?
As for the A-400M roll on roll off kit, there are two comments in the following article worthy of note.
"Unlike Canadairs, the A400M cannot scoop water from lakes or the sea; it must land to refill. For this reason, French officials emphasize that the aircraft is designed to lay protective retardant lines ahead of advancing flames, not to attack fire fronts directly."
And
"The French Air and Space Force operates more than 25 A400Ms, and lawmakers have stressed that the aircraft should remain a complementary tool, used occasionally and strategically alongside France's fleet of Canadairs, Dash 8s, and water‑bombing helicopters."
www.ctif.org
Of the countries in Europe only 7 operate the A400M, and that includes the UK where the question of acquiring fire fighting aircraft beyond existing helicopters has only just been raised in the past week.
As for Positive Aviation, it is a start up company, with proposals to convert second hand ATR-72 into water bombers. One of the conversions it is proposing is the FF72-S with floats to allow it to scoop water. Converting an ATR72 to a floatplane and getting it certified will take time and the timescale already seems to be slipping. The scooping floats have only just been delivered and the prototype is not scheduled to fly until 2027, certification planned for 2028 and service entry in time for the 2029 fire season. So far it has an order for 10 with a follow on option for another 10 from a single customer, Bridger Aviation. Their market seems to be in the USA.
planepost.com
The other version is being designed to drop retardant and joins a list of other companies that already have conversions of other ex airliners flying already e.g. BAe 146 / RJ, & Dash 8.
www.airmedandrescue.com
Kepplair is another start up company and it has only just acquired its first ATR72 for conversion with its own design of water drop system. I doubt it will manage to get its prototype converted and certified for service in 2027 which it seems to have been hoping to do.
Germany has also begun a project to convert two C-160D Transall transport aircraft into fire fighters in time for next season.
IMHO, with the market expanding, these aircraft may find a market, but I doubt if they will have a material effect on the market for the new build De Havilland Canadair 515.
As for the A-400M roll on roll off kit, there are two comments in the following article worthy of note.
"Unlike Canadairs, the A400M cannot scoop water from lakes or the sea; it must land to refill. For this reason, French officials emphasize that the aircraft is designed to lay protective retardant lines ahead of advancing flames, not to attack fire fronts directly."
And
"The French Air and Space Force operates more than 25 A400Ms, and lawmakers have stressed that the aircraft should remain a complementary tool, used occasionally and strategically alongside France's fleet of Canadairs, Dash 8s, and water‑bombing helicopters."
France deploys the A400M water bomber - capable of several Canadair's worth of water in one drop
The A400M’s roll‑on/roll‑off firefighting module is a removable tank installed through the aircraft’s rear ramp. It can release 20 tonnes of water or retardant in under 10 seconds.
Of the countries in Europe only 7 operate the A400M, and that includes the UK where the question of acquiring fire fighting aircraft beyond existing helicopters has only just been raised in the past week.
As for Positive Aviation, it is a start up company, with proposals to convert second hand ATR-72 into water bombers. One of the conversions it is proposing is the FF72-S with floats to allow it to scoop water. Converting an ATR72 to a floatplane and getting it certified will take time and the timescale already seems to be slipping. The scooping floats have only just been delivered and the prototype is not scheduled to fly until 2027, certification planned for 2028 and service entry in time for the 2029 fire season. So far it has an order for 10 with a follow on option for another 10 from a single customer, Bridger Aviation. Their market seems to be in the USA.
Positive Aviation Hits Milestone with First Scooping Floats for FF72
Positive Aviation has received the first composite scooping floats for its FF72-X1 demonstrator, an amphibious aerial firefighting platform conversion.
planepost.com
The other version is being designed to drop retardant and joins a list of other companies that already have conversions of other ex airliners flying already e.g. BAe 146 / RJ, & Dash 8.
Special report: Dashing into the fray
Jon Adams looks at what makes the Dash 8-400 the ideal candidate for Conair’s successful and ongoing program of conversion and operation of the platform as an airtanker
www.airmedandrescue.com
Kepplair is another start up company and it has only just acquired its first ATR72 for conversion with its own design of water drop system. I doubt it will manage to get its prototype converted and certified for service in 2027 which it seems to have been hoping to do.
Germany has also begun a project to convert two C-160D Transall transport aircraft into fire fighters in time for next season.
IMHO, with the market expanding, these aircraft may find a market, but I doubt if they will have a material effect on the market for the new build De Havilland Canadair 515.
- Thread starter
- #112
Admiral Beez
Major
The market waits for no one, so it's rarely wise to leave a vacuum while demand increases. To that end, DHC is considering a 2nd production line.
And now the Ontario, Canada government wants a fleet of the things. With DHC having several dozen aircraft on back order and a projected production rate of perhaps 4-6 per year, Ontario's sixty aircraft is a ridiculous ask. To be fair this sounds more like showmanship where managing fire risk and prevention is the harder, more expensive path.
As an ex low-level fixed-wing pilot, if I was going to do the fire-fighting job, I would want to fly the DHC 515 due to its rugged, simple, reliable, tough and optimised features for that job.
Maybe even greater strength and more power would be even better!
For me, trying to do the job in a less capable adaptation would be bad. In my view, the nasty situations at low level always occur sometime and trying to do that job with a fragile modified airliner or similar would be a no-no. Somedays, you just have to pull 4G to miss the ground!
Good wishes to all low fliers!
Eng
Maybe even greater strength and more power would be even better!
For me, trying to do the job in a less capable adaptation would be bad. In my view, the nasty situations at low level always occur sometime and trying to do that job with a fragile modified airliner or similar would be a no-no. Somedays, you just have to pull 4G to miss the ground!
Good wishes to all low fliers!
Eng
- Thread starter
- #114
Admiral Beez
Major
It does seem that every alternative is a poor compromise over the DHC 415/515. The anticipated 12–13 years between delivery of the last CL-415 (in 2015) at Bombardier and delivery of the first new Canadair 515 at DHC in 2028 is unfortunate given the growing issue of forest fires.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Patent that idea.
A bunch of these are what I see as the way to go. I am a multi pilot and find the big planes sexy and all, but these Fire Boss can dip out of a small bit of river or whatnot and have some very short cycle times.
View: https://youtu.be/q61ZjVuxlCo?si=oo1oRmyWDBZAbKn6
View: https://youtu.be/q61ZjVuxlCo?si=oo1oRmyWDBZAbKn6
- Thread starter
- #118
Admiral Beez
Major
This looks interesting. At this small scale the Flyox can carry only 1,560 L of water and it cannot scoop water from the surface. But make it bigger with a scooper and we might have something. Imagine a fleet of these on a continuous circuit over a fire zone, limited only by fuel, water and coffee for the operators.
Flyox | Singular Aircraft
New Firefighting Drone Shoots Continuous Water from the Sky
A new drone called the SAP developed in Portugal can shoot a steady stream of water drawn from a hose—here's everything you need to know.
uavcoach.com
This Canadian-French project looks interesting. In February 2025 Airbus Defence and Space joined the program, and the prototype is expected to fly in 2029. The Fregate F100 looks to be the competitor DHC should watch.
Canadian Company to Collaborate on New Amphibious Water Bomber - Canadian Aviator
Hynaero, a French company based in Bordeaux, announced this week that it has contracted Montreal-based Altitude Aerospace to assist with the design and engineering of their Fregate-F100 amphibious water bomber, a clean-sheet design that [...]
canadianaviator.com
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ThomasP
Chief Master Sergeant
Catalina Aircraft Trust are reporting queries about buying their Catalina II aircraft for fire fighting purposes also, with serious inquiries beginning earlier this year.
- Thread starter
- #120
Admiral Beez
Major
As much as I like their dressing, I think Catalina Aircraft is more some VC's vaporware than anything else. They were supposed to begin flight testing in 2025, and as of now there is no flying Catalina II prototype. But I'd love to be proven wrong, as it would be great to see a new Cat flying. Here in Toronto we sometimes see the Consolidated PBY-5A Canso flying out of the CWPHM.
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