Dogfight: Me 262 vs. Meteor

[Kryten]

the Mig15 used a radial flow engine, as did the P80 I believe?

axial flow is the better option with modern materials and manufacturing but in ww2 the radial was the better option!

 

[Gixxerman]

These threads often seem to assume properly built equipment.
With the state Germany was in in 1945 that is one heck of an assumption.
Frankly I wouldn't trust taking to the air in anything made in Germany at that stage, from poor armour and steels to poor quality ammunition explosives to dodgy jet engines, I have every sympathy for those who did thinking they were doing their duty to their country but the decline was so awful every flight was surely a lottery in pretty much anything Germany could field in 45?

My money would be on the allied fighter pilot every time, even the basics such as his equipment is likely to be better manufactured and by that stage the balance of experienced pilots taking to the field (with few noteable exceptions) is on the allies side.

 

[davebender]

I wouldn't trust a B-29 manufactured during early 1944 or Meteor manufactured during early 1945 either. But if that's what you are assigned to fly you have no choice. For planning purposes you've got to assume the equipment will work per manufacturers specifications.

 

[GrauGeist]

The Me262 (and other equipment from '44 onward) worked well enough to put a scare in the Allies...yes, the engines had thier shortcomings but they allowed the 262 the ability to get up to the bombers and wreak havoc

The Me262, He162, Meteor and Shooting Star all had thier own problems because of the new technology being pushed into combat but they were all effective in thier own right

 

[GregP]

I'd think the Meteor would be easily able to defend itself against an Me-262, but could not break off the engagement. It would be kind of like attacking a porcupine.

The Me-262 pilot was faster and had good armament but the Meteor would turn inside him every time and ALSO had good armament.

If either could surprise the other, the win would go to the attacker. If they were both aware of what was happening, I'd say it was about a draw, and the Meteor was a bit more reliable, though a working Me-262 was as dangerous as anything in WWII in the air. On 7 Novemebr 1945, a Gloster Meteor set the world speed record at 606 mph TAS. Definitely faster than the 440 mph I see above. The war ended with Meteors having destroyed 46 German aircraft all on the ground and having suffered more from misidentification and attack by ALlied fighers and flak than from the Germans.

As a result, theyw ere painted white for identification purposes. The closest to jet-on-jet combat they ever came in WWII was 19 March 1945 when their airfield was attacked by German Arado AR-234 jets. No Meteors were airborne or GOT airborne and the combat never happened in WWII.

The P-80 was at or near the level of performance of the Me-262 but only four airplanes made ot to Europe as far as I know. The P-80A made 558 mph at sea level and 492 mph at 40,000 feet. The Me-262 was very slightly faster at altitude but was outclimbed by the P-80A. Neither ever fought against the other, and the P-80 also never fought against the Meteor.

Interestingly, Meteors fought each other in Argentia during the revolts of the 1950's, but none shot down another. One, a rebel aircraft, was lost due to flying wth gasoline intead of jet fuel (aviation kerosene).

 

[firedup]

Dont think either could be considered maneuverable, especially as the turning circle would increase considerably with speed!
the 262 armament is more suited to engaging bombers whereas the meteor armament would be prefferable in a dogfight? but if the meteor engaged the 262 during an attack on the bomber as in the original post, then the meteor should have the tactical advantage, just as piston engined fighters did in these occasions!

When you look at the comparative destruction caused by the 30mm cannon round with 4 MK108'S in the nose as long as the Meteor did'nt get the jump on the 262 i'd tend to go with the 262 - I believe it was Galland her stated that the ideal would be to have the 262's engage the escorts with the 190's 109's going after the bombers.I saw a special on one of the very few Komet attacks/dogfights where the Mosquito pilot saw the vapor trail from the rocket and tryed to evade and turn away but the Komet for some reason took off after him instead of the bombers and out turned him - came in and took out one of his engines but as the Mosquito dove off did'nt continue the attack and let him go - of course how long did the Komet have of powered flight not long enough for a chase -

 

[firedup]

I also think it would depend on whether the 262 slowed to get more of an aim or dove in at speed again it would'nt take many 30mm cannon round hits i'd imagine to bring down an aircraft as robust as the 17 - same way most the 262's were shot down either on take off or landing when they were at the disadvantage of not being able to run their engines up quickly - All aside i think the 262 - with an experienced pilot was right up there if not the most formidable aircraft in the sky at the time would've been a very close 2nd - depending.Now what about the HO9?

 

[Siegfried]

The P-80A in combat trim never made 558 mph in 1945. Me 262 made 568mph at 25000ft but they were not in combat trim.

A good Me 262 production model, in combat trim that serendiptiously had a good well tolleranced airframe and a good set of engines could do 560mph (see the book "The Best of Wings Magazine"). Many Me 262 were built without jigs and these were likely the airframes with poor tollerances.

You can see P-80A speed performance tests here:
P-80 Performance Tests

The 558 mph P-80 in 1945 doesn't exist, latter Lockeed experimented with new noses and engines and achieved this speed.

The speed Meteors which broke records in late 1945 could only do so at sea level where they only managed Mach 0.81 to do this they required new Dewent V engine, faired over gun ports, reduced weight and clipped wings. One might expect a few improvements in the Me 262 by then as well.

Hence I argue the performance these aircraft had in compat trim around Feb 1945 is the only figure that is comparing apples with apples.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Define "Combat Trim."

 

[TheMustangRider]

I believe it was Galland her stated that the ideal would be to have the 262's engage the escorts with the 190's 109's going after the bombers.

To my point of view, using Me262s to engage escorts while conventional fighters would go after the heavies would have been a waste of resources and a lack of tactical flexibility on part of the Luftwaffe.
Me-262s were interceptors at heart and as such caused havoc among Allied bomber groups, albeit on small numbers.
Directing them -in great numbers- to go after the bombers while greater numbers of late 109s and 190s protect them from escorts would have surely made an impact on the allied strategic bombing campaign and would have forced the USAAF to yet again considerate its tactics like it did on late 1943.

 

[GregP]

Siefried, the placarded maximum speed for the Me-262 was 540 mph. That comes from the German Messerschmitt Company themselves. The documentation possessed by the Stormbirds project exceeds anything the rest of us have ever read. I went and visited just before they flew the first one for the second time. The Stormbirds project planes were so accurate, Messerschmitt issued them consecttive werknumbers from the end of the original production run.

I saw letters from Messerschmitt on the wall that stated categorically the maximum speed was 540 mph and, if you went faster, you were a test pilot on your own.

Sorry, the 558 mph from the P-80 in November 1940 is a matter of historical record, not opinion. You are free to doubt history, I don't care one way or the other, but it happened. In combat trim the P-80 in 1945 would make about 520 mph at 20,000 feet and the Messerschmitt would make about 520 - 530 at the same altitude. Individual aircraft were slightly better or worse. What it means is they were roughly equal, and that is what I said.

What is it with people who want to fight over ±10 mph? Individual aircraft and the state of dirt on the airframe could do that. In point of fact, the P-80 and Me-262 never fought each other and it is easily verifiable that they had generally similar performance ... all you have top do is read about it. As I have stated many times before, the only people who ever saw maximum speed except in a dive were test pilots. Operational pilots had no use for maximum speed because you would have to aniticipate the need for it several minutes in advance and be in exactly the right place and exactly the right altitude. So they mostly fought from cruise speed after military power had been applied and allowed to accelerate for a VERY short time while they either attacked or tried desperately to evade.

 

[Kryten]

not to mention a 262, P-80 or Meteor travelling flat out at 500mph + would be highly unlikely to be able to bring guns to bear on even a bomber at that speed, they would have to slow down to fight!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

In point of fact, the P-80 and Me-262 never fought each other and it is easily verifiable that they had generally similar performance.

Same words from Chuck Yeager who flew both of them.

 

[davebender]

A Ju-87 can turn inside a P-47 or P-51 every time too. That doesn't help unless the pilot of the faster aircraft is stupid enough to engage in a stall fight.

 

[Kryten]

difference being you would have to slow down to similar airspeeds to fight in these jets and thats going to be nowhere near stall speed!

F4 fought, won and lost to Mig 15's and 17's over Vietnam so jet combat is not about absolute V-Max any more than piston engined fighter is!

 

[davebender]

From what I've read Me-262s normally attacked at max speed. Have you read first person accounts that suggest otherwise?

 

[Kryten]

you have first hand accounts of Meteor v Me262 combats?

 

[davebender]

Why would a Me-262 fight a Meteor differently then a P-51D? The Me-262 is faster in both cases so he's going to boom zoom the enemy.

 

[Kryten]

first off this is not what the opening post scenario asks!
secondly the only way a 262 at 500mph could hit a P51 is if he didnt see it coming, which again is not the question, the turn radius will be in miles at that speed it wont take much of a direction change to put the P51 outside the ability of the 262 to get a firing solution, in fact I doubt many pilots could line up on a bomber successfully at that speed!

 

[davebender]

Turn radius has little to do with this fight. The Me-262 will make a high speed diving pass from a position of superior altitude. If that's not possible the Me-262 will use his superior speed to extend away and look for an easier target.