Dogfight: Me 262 vs. Meteor

[Friendly Fire]

Assume that the GM's pilot was somewhat less experienced but more knowledgeable about the enemy aircraft than the 262 pilot (an allied jet fighter arriving with no warning would've be a shocker). Both of them meet each other at the same altitude shortly after the 262's dive on a B-17 Flying Fortress during an allied bombing run, who would win?

 

[Siegfried]

Probably the Me 262 as in most cases they were still being flown by experienced fighter pilots and the Me 262 was substantially faster.

The question depends to some extent on which Meteor
Meteor I with Welland engines, good for around 417mph, actually slower than FW 190D-9's and Me 109K-4's except for maybe sea level.
Meteor I with improved Wellands (good for about 440mph but still not better than a piston aircraft
Meteor III with early Wellands good for about 440 mph
Meteor III with Derwent II good for about 480mph (these were derated)
Meteror III with Derwent II just after end of war, good for about 490mph. (there was no Meteor II in service, this test only version had axial flow Vickers Beryl engines)

The Me 262 had a typical max speed of 540mph and about 515mph at sea level. Poor examples managed only 522mph but good ones did over 560mph due to airframe tollerances. On that basis we can say that the Me 262 could evade combat or escape if it were not on his terms. It's a big advantage.

The Meteor was most probably more manouverable in terms of turning circle (though the Vampire was much better) though I would doubt the turning rate was superior as the Me 262 was faster. The Meteor also had a higher service ceiling due to compressor surging issues that the Me 262 had. The Me 262 could be flown to a respectable 37,000ft but 30,000ft to 33,000ft represents a safe limmit for it due to those engine issues while the Meteor could get to 42,000ft. Me 262 had a higher Mach limmit and dive rate though the Meteor III's addition of speed brakes made it more able to exploit a dive. Messerschmitt could probably add speed brakes of a similar kind as the dive brake used on the Me 410.

After the end of the war highly modified Meteor III's with clipped wings, faired over gun ports and Derwent V engines managed speeds of around 600mph at sea level. The Derwent V was not really a Derwent but a scaled down Nene. The records had to be broken at sea level where the speed of sound was 750mph because at 36,000ft where the speed of sound was 660mph the Meteor would have exceded Mach limmit and possibly ended up in an irrecoverable "Mach Tuck" dive. These modifications were 'productionised' as the Meteor F4 but only in 1948. Till then Meteor III's held the line.

Bottom Line: Me 262 was much faster than Meteor and P-80A during the period of the hostillities. It could out accelerate and outclimbe the P-80A and likely the Meteor (especially as the Meteor approched its top speed) at around 25,000ft.

The Jumo 004B4 reliabillity showed promise of improving and some if well handled managed 60 hours before being refurbished. The life was not a nominal 25 hours but the MTBO (mean time between overhaul) was 25 hours. The 6 carbon steel combustion chamber cans were removed (due to corrision of the mild steel used) and the turbine blade was removed for recyling and replaced with a new one. (Officially it was x-rayed and reused for 12.5 hours if OK).

At the end of the war a new control system was meant to reach opperational service, the bescleunigungs ventile (accelerator valve) and I can provide a link to source documents. The Jumo 004B engine used a simple centrifugal governor to control RPM of the engine via the throttle, if the throttle was move to fast the gap between target RPM and actual lead to too great an increase in fuel that could burn out the engine combustion chambers and turbines or if throttleing down lead to fuel starvation.

The accelerator control valve added an aneroid capsule across the compressor to effetively measure true mass flow of air to keep the air-fuel ratio such that it neither overheated the engine or flamed it out. The system mde it onto the BMW 003. Another feature likely before the end of 1945 would be duplex nozzels whereby at low flow rates that are experience at idling or high altitude a second set of nozzles is engaged that maintains a fine fuel aerosol suitable for stable combustion. There was also postions for electronic temperature sensing in the Jumo 004B to further tame the engine and thereby extend its life and thrust.

The Jumo 004D, scheduled for 1945 production was supposed to increase thrust from 900kP to 1050 or 1100kP. Using a square root law this 19% increase in thrust should drive the Me 262 speed up by 9% or to its Mach limmit ie about 565mph at altitude and 575mph at sea level.

The Me 262 needed superior speed as its manouverabillity was likely limmited in comparison to allied jets.

 

[Kryten]

Dont think either could be considered maneuverable, especially as the turning circle would increase considerably with speed!
the 262 armament is more suited to engaging bombers whereas the meteor armament would be prefferable in a dogfight? but if the meteor engaged the 262 during an attack on the bomber as in the original post, then the meteor should have the tactical advantage, just as piston engined fighters did in these occasions!

 

[davebender]

A competent Me-262 pilot would use his superior speed to boom zoom the slower Gloster Meteor. He's going to control this engagement or simply out run the slower Allied fighter aircraft and go looking for another bomber to kill.

 

[GrauGeist]

Based on the scenario that Friendly Fire suggests, there wouldn't be much of a dogfight, since the Me262's fuel supply would be getting low...

Considering that the Me262 has already been airborn and vectoring on the bomber stream as well as engaging, the Meteor would have a slight advantage. The 262's pilot would have to make the decision as to wether he wants to engage the Meteor with it's full loadout versus his now very limited ammo or should he use his remaining fuel and better speed to just climb away and head for home...

 

[davebender]

What was the endurance of a Gloster Meteor during April 1945? I suspect no better then a Me-262.

 

[GrauGeist]

Their ranges were close to being the same (600 plus miles) but consider the Meteor has freshly arrived to the scene and the Me262 has already been hunting/attacking (based on the thread's suggested scenario)

 

[davebender]

From where?

The Meteor has probably flown several hundred miles to get to the fight over Germany. The Me-262 is operating within 25 miles of a friendly airfield.

 

[GrauGeist]

Considering the timeline, the Meteor has taken off from an airfield near the Allied front lines so it's flight time may match that of the 262, granted, but the Schwalbe has already been engaged with the bombers, making it's fuel consumption greater (it is no longer cruising) and it has been attacking, expending it's precious few cannon rounds.

 

[cimmex]

I think both jets needs a extra long runway to start, so not every airfield nearby would be useable. Usually jets have a special fixed homebase. The fuel consumption for the sorties would be different for each scenario.
cimmex

 

[Tankworks]

I think that the aircraft were close enough in performance to suggest that it would boil down to the individual pilots involved. Pretty much like the spitfires and me.s during the Battle of Britain. The winner would usually be the guy that could sneak up behind the other guy and 'murder him'. 262 pilots were known to forget the advantages of their aircraft over their pistion engined adversaries and get themselves shot down so the same would probably have happened in jet verses jet combat. Korea with somewhat slower speeds?

 

[GrauGeist]

Tankworks, don't think for a minute that the Me262 was a dogfighter...it was not. To enter into a turning fight with a P-51, Spitfire or any other comparable fighter, was pure suicide.

Many Me262 "kills" were made when it was taking off or landing, when it was at it's most vulnerable state...

 

[Tankworks]

I did not say that the 262 was a dogfighter but the question was which would win in a jet vs jet dogfight, 262 or Meteor. My opinion is that pilot skill (and cunning) would be the determining factor. It would be Korea (Mig vs Sabre) at a slower pace.
As an aside, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Galland say that the 262 with Meteor engines would have been a better combination (he flew both so if that was his opinion it should be given serious consideration).

 

[cimmex]

but didn't Galland say that the 262 with Meteor engines would have been a better combination (he flew both so if that was his opinion it should be given serious consideration).

Why a more bulky Centrifugal compressor engine with around the same thrust? In my opinion it would be a step back in the evolution.
cimmex

 

[Vincenzo]

Me 262 is not a turningfighter but sure turning best of all NWE fighters at 490 mph

 

[cimmex]

what is a NWE fighter?

 

[Vincenzo]

sorry North West Europe

 

[cimmex]

thks

 

[Friendly Fire]

From where?

The Meteor has probably flown several hundred miles to get to the fight over Germany. The Me-262 is operating within 25 miles of a friendly airfield.

Sorry for not mentioning where. I was assuming an airfield for the Meteors was built somewhat before the Battle of the Bulge, when the Allies have captured pretty much all of France.

 

[davparlr]

Why a more bulky Centrifugal compressor engine with around the same thrust? In my opinion it would be a step back in the evolution.
cimmex

I would guess better reliability and 1200 lbs less weight. German engines were not very good in the thrust-to-weight category. I think that in WW2 plus a few years engine evolution had not reached the axial flow engines yet. I suspect centrifugal compressor engines were simpler to build and more rugged, and probably more reliable than early axial engines, and, apparently a lot lighter.

Also, he was probably flying a later meteor model with more powerful engines.