Dora-13 or 152C?

Juha · Apr 29, 2012

Siegfried said:
What puts the lie to that is the fact that Rescke was able to turn inside the Tempest, get his guns on it, and then continue to close and get his guns on it again. W.O. Mitchells Tempest stalled in a turn and then spun into the ground while Reschke writes that he was nowhere near his aircrafts limmits and had perfect control sensitivity.

What other Tempest pilots? There were non engaged by the Ta 152's. Those pilots were smoking an early form of weed are engaged Me 109's or FW 190's.

Short was Mitchell's element leader, now he identified the attackers as 109s, and the plane which shot down Mitchell as 109E, so either they were 109s and Mitchell was shot down by a 109 or they were 152s. Short claimed that he outturned the othet German plane and claimed it as damaged. Shaw was the number 2 of the 4 plane Tempest formation ie the wingman of the formation leader W/C Brooker, and he claimed a lonely 190 at right time and at right place, according to him "a strike just forward of the cockpit." and both used gun camera so they had something on the film on the combats.

Juha

Milosh · Apr 29, 2012

Have you read this Siegfried?

Ludwigslust aerial combat

cimmex · Apr 29, 2012

Juha said:
Short was Mitchell's element leader, now he identified the attackers as 109s, and the plane which shot down Mitchell as 109E,

Juha

In 1945 a Bf109E in combat with Tempest?
Sorry Juha, sometimes your posts are rather funny...
Regards
Cimmex

Kryten · Apr 29, 2012

think you need to re read that Cimmex, the pilots combat report identified thier attackers as BF109, misidentification is a regular occurance, that the guy reported them as 109E should give you an idea how clued up these guys were on the finer details of aircraft recognition!

Kryten · Apr 29, 2012

Siegfried said:
What puts the lie to that is the fact that Rescke was able to turn inside the Tempest, get his guns on it, and then continue to close and get his guns on it again. W.O. Mitchells Tempest stalled in a turn and then spun into the ground while Reschke writes that he was nowhere near his aircrafts limmits and had perfect control sensitivity.

What other Tempest pilots? There were non engaged by the Ta 152's. Those pilots were smoking an early form of weed are engaged Me 109's or FW 190's.

that would be the other Tempest pair that shot down sattler, FW190 claimed same time, place and altitude!
sattler couldnt pull out because he had been shot down!

Juha · Apr 29, 2012

cimmex said:
In 1945 a Bf109E in combat with Tempest?
Sorry Juha, sometimes your posts are rather funny...
Regards
Cimmex

Nix
only sometimes pilots' a/c recognizations were funny. Certainly it wasn't 109E, but as He 113s in British combat reports or Me 109s seen by USN pilots at Midway in June 42 misidentifications were not so rare.

Juha

GregP · Apr 29, 2012

I would not think it wouod make a bit of difference.At the end of the war there were exactly two Ta 152C's operational and they have only verified two Fw 190D-13's out of the approximately 17 supposed built as ever having gotten operational.

So, you are looking at a choice among four aircraft that are reasonably close in performance and each was exactly as fit as the other to make an impact on the war; they had none. So you are looking at four pretty good aircraft that made no difference to Germany or the Allies in real life. Might as well pick the one that has the lowest-time engine. It might last longer than the others before it needed the non-existent spare parts.

On the more technical side, I think they were almost identical in capability with the D-13 having the MG 151/20 firing through the prop hub. I'd probably take the centerline armament as the deciding factor and pick the one with the lower-time engine and least damage from normal wear and tear.

Siegfried · Apr 29, 2012

Milosh said:
Have you read this Siegfried?

Ludwigslust aerial combat

That guy looses his credibillity when he starts of by stating absolutes such as "links that to the reasons why Ta152 is likely the most overrated and overhyped airplane ever."

Siegfried · Apr 29, 2012

Kryten said:
think you need to re read that Cimmex, the pilots combat report identified thier attackers as BF109, misidentification is a regular occurance, that the guy reported them as 109E should give you an idea how clued up these guys were on the finer details of aircraft recognition!

They claim confiromation in cine camera and that doesn't show Ta 152H. The Ta 152H has rather distinct features, you know like the wings.

GregP · Apr 29, 2012

Look at all the hype the Ta-152 gets with a combat record of anywheere from 7 kills and 4 losses to 10 kills and two losses.

If seems like a pretty good aircraft design, and the circumstances of its employment coupled with construction by slave labor and the attending sabotage may explain the so-so combat record, but calling it the best ever with that combat record is definitely overhyped by almost any definition of the word, woulldn't you say?

The only genuine Ta-152 left (in the U.S.A.) is not flyable, so maybe we'll never know. If it were to be made flyable, I think the supply of Jumo 213E engines is so limited it would never even do a top speed run.

Juha · Apr 30, 2012

Siegfried said:
They claim confiromation in cine camera and that doesn't show Ta 152H. The Ta 152H has rather distinct features, you know like the wings.

Hello Siegfied
have you seen the film, or what is source of your claim?

BTW still waiting the source of your claim that "Brown also writes that the PR XIX latter known as the PR.19 was less manouverable above 25,000ft" than Ta 152H-1.

Juha

cimmex · Apr 30, 2012

Kryten said:
think you need to re read that Cimmex, the pilots combat report identified thier attackers as BF109, misidentification is a regular occurance, that the guy reported them as 109E should give you an idea how clued up these guys were on the finer details of aircraft recognition!

Do you really believe that an allied fighter pilot in 1945 was not trained which kind of enemy models he could meet during his sorties and how to fight against.
BTW I don't trust web sites like("Ludwigslust aerial combat") with such kind of Yellow press headlines at all, do you?
Regards
Cimmex

Kryten · Apr 30, 2012

Siegfried said:
They claim confiromation in cine camera and that doesn't show Ta 152H. The Ta 152H has rather distinct features, you know like the wings.

the guys UNDER ATTACK identified the aircraft as 109's, or is that simply a mistype by the pilot in his report, 109 instead of 190?, simple case of misidentification or are you saying they werent attacked by the 152?

the pair that shot down sattler identified it as a 190, bearing in mind no allied pilots had seen a ta152, how would you expect them to identify it correctly anyway?
and what relevance is any of this, seeing as the time and location of the encounters are verified by both sides!

Kryten · Apr 30, 2012

cimmex said:
Do you really believe that an allied fighter pilot in 1945 was not trained which kind of enemy models he could meet during his sorties and how to fight against.
BTW I don't trust web sites like("Ludwigslust aerial combat") with such kind of Yellow press headlines at all, do you?
Regards
Cimmex

I believe making an error such as 109 instead of 190 in a report that noone liked typing out anyway is very believeble!

cimmex · Apr 30, 2012

There was mentioned Me 109E, and there was no E-version of the 190. So I don't think the pilot made such a typo. Most likely is that this combat report never exists in that way.
Regards
Cimmex

Jenisch · Apr 30, 2012

cimmex said:
In 1945 a Bf109E in combat with Tempest?
Sorry Juha, sometimes your posts are rather funny...
Regards
Cimmex

I do not doubt there was some 109E flying in 1945. Probably stored that returned to service.

cimmex · Apr 30, 2012

Sure there were some 109E left, in flying schools. But a 1940 plane in combat with tempests, lol, next comes "with Galland at the controls."
Cimmex

Jenisch · Apr 30, 2012

I forgot the flying schools. The Russians BTW, still had some frontline squadrons with I-16s in 1945!

I already read in somewhere a story from a pilot that fought in a 109E in 1945, to let the less experience others fly better versions. If it's truth, perhaps was an instrutor. By the wars end there was not much fuel left to train pilots anyway.

About the performance differences, ah, the 109E was similar to the Zeros and Oscars the Japanese were still flying in 1945. Obsolete but still capable capable of surprises if well flown.

Juha · May 1, 2012

cimmex said:
Do you really believe that an allied fighter pilot in 1945 was not trained which kind of enemy models he could meet during his sorties and how to fight against.

If so, why at least in almost all AFs there were cases of own goals, after all confusing between 109 and 190/152 was rather harmless, much less fatal than confusing between Spit and 109 or between Hampden and Do 17. All that happened.

cimmex said:
BTW I don't trust web sites like("Ludwigslust aerial combat") with such kind of Yellow press headlines at all, do you?
Regards
Cimmex

Now all those reconstructions should be handled carefully but the writer of that article had put links there, so one can check his facts, for ex the combat reports. But if you are a true believer, who would not like to check the facts which might be contrary to your believes, its not my problem.

Juha

Juha · May 1, 2012

cimmex said:
There was mentioned Me 109E, and there was no E-version of the 190. So I don't think the pilot made such a typo. Most likely is that this combat report never exists in that way.
Regards
Cimmex

It was not in the combat report in that way, Mitchell's elementary leader Short reported them as Me 109s, why they are 109Es in Shores' and Thomas' 2nd Tactical AF Vol 3, who knowns maybe Me 109 E of Ludwiglust had trasferred in some stage to Me 109E E of L...

The writer of the article gives a link to the reports, but if you are too lazy, look the attachment, it is from Mike Williams' site, to where the link also is.

Dora-13 or 152C?

Senior Master Sergeant

Senior Master Sergeant

Senior Airman

Senior Airman

Senior Airman

Senior Master Sergeant

Major

Banned

Banned

Major

Senior Master Sergeant

Senior Airman

Senior Airman

Senior Airman

Senior Airman

Staff Sergeant

Senior Airman

Staff Sergeant

Senior Master Sergeant

Senior Master Sergeant

Attachments

Users who are viewing this thread

Similar threads