davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
I certainly agree with this. We also don't know if the improvements would have worked or not.
Dora-13 or 152C?
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I certainly agree with this. We also don't know if the improvements would have worked or not.
Hello Jim
All true and nobody had claimed that Ta 152 wasn't a very formitable fighter. But
1) a) Do you know any other Ta 152 vs Spit combats? If not, how would LW pilots knew that one should not be anymore "leary of the Spitfie" b) Now some Ta 152 fans have claimed that because Reschke succeeded to shot down a Tempest, that shows that Ta 152 was a superior plane totally forgetting that the 152s surprised the Tempest pair while it was strafing trains. As you wrote we don't know the tactical situation or the experience level of either side involved that Spit vs 152 combat. In any combat the attacker had usually at least initial advance. There is even a case when a Finnish I-153 (ex-Soviet bi-plane) tactical recce pilot shot down a Soviet P-39 in Summer 44. Of course nobody has drawn the conclusion that I-153 was a better fighter than P-39 from that combat.
2) We also know that probably 152s never participated combat while equipped with both types of power-boost systems, even if that was claimed earlier. The PR 19 stuff, yes that is a bit strange, maybe Brown was more familiar with 19 than with XIV or 18, or simply he fly alternately with 152H-1 and 19 i order to test PR 19's ability to survive against a special high altitude fighter.
Juha
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These Ta 152H were pre production aircraft, all of a technically different configuration. A squadron of Spitfire XIV bouncing what were only 6 essentially prototype Ta 152H on a transfer (evacuation) flight in the 10th last day of the war, when Germany conisisted of tiny territory, cleaven in 2 (or 3 or more) and swarmed by hundreds of allied aircraft counts for nothing in evaluating the aircraft. We have no record of the event, only a hearsay account.
Brown has to be taken with a grain of salt in this,
Brown also writes that the PR XIX latter known as the PR.19 was less manouverable above 25,000ft. So which of his opinions is more correct?. The Mk XIX Spitifre was a Griffon engined photo reconaisance Spitfire capable of 49000ft of service ceiling due to its lack of armour, armament and supercharger optimised for altitude. It is a much better comparison than the less altitude capable Mk.XIV or Mk.XVIII (which weighed over 8800lbs).
The PR XIX was also fast at 460mph because of the lack of drag and would have had better lift than a standard spit from its clean gun bulge free wings.
Of course Browns evaluation is purely subjective. The superior manouverabillity of the Ta 152H over the MK XIV above 25,000 that he acknowledges etc etc can't be explained in terms of better engine power for the German aircraft: both the Ta 152H had intercooled liquid cooled V12 of around 34L with two stage three speed superchargers.
The better manouverabillity (at height) can only be explained in terms of better lift loading and better L/D (lift to drag ratios) of the Ta 152H. If so the Ta 152H should also have better manouverabillity at low altitude. Then why not?
The reason is that the Ta 152H was at a severe power advantage.
Then Spitfire XIV was basically running around with 2300hp (on 100/150) and 2038 on 100/150 fuel and 100/150 fuel was certainly available.
1 Ta 152 only received the erhote noteleistung (increase emergency power) that boosted power from 1750hp to 1900hp by Feb 1945. It was running way behined the Fw 190D-9 in receiving this modification.
2 Ta 152H1 with MW-50 which permitted 2050ps/2000hp on B4+MW50 (B4 = 87 octane) came in around that time as well.
3 The RAF, which captured a Ta 152H0 and a Ta 152H1 never flew any Ta 152H with MW50.4 The one opportunity they had of evaluating the Ta 152H flown by an experienced German fighter pilots against a Spitfire in post war mock combat was avoided (see Harmann book in the same page) because it was feared that the German pilot would bail out and destroy the aircraft. This is a case of the some of the officers being victims of their own lurid propaganda about the nature of Germans as unstrustworthy fanatics. Possibly the lack of comparison was good for the longevity of the Spitfire legend but now we'll never know.
[/B]So we have the case of a 1900ps Ta 152H being subjectively evaluated against a 2300hp Mk XIV. Guess which aircraft is going to turn better before loosing height or loosing speed due to the lift induced drag from high g turning, which aircraft is going to turn at a better speed or rate and which one is going to be able to climb faster and dive down upon its opponent. We are comparing an aircraft knobled to 332 mph versus a 389mph aircraft. Throw in a bit British haughty supercilious superiority common of victors in the immediate period following victory and we have a good explanation as to why an aircraft with better turn at 30,000 somehow had less a low altitude.
In this case the term "manouverabillity" obviously is a subjective composit that includes instantaneous climb, speed, acceleration, roll rate, sustained turning rate ALL of which except roll rate are functions of engine power. Above about 25,000 feet the Spitfires better fuel would not help it at all as 87 octane is sufficent at the pressures encountered.
Brown wasn't the kind of guy that talked much about specific test conditions, fuel types and detailed issues. He gave subjective impressions and had the intuitive skills to survive poorly handling aircraft. He never writes like a professional test pilot as one wouild communicate to engineers (he doesn't seem to have been and R+D type) even if he was one. He refused to meet with Heinrich Beajealais a test pilot at Rechlin to discuss the manouverabillity of the Me 109 v Spitfire so we have few if any objective assesments of his impressions.
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Kryten
Senior Airman
"""4 The one opportunity they had of evaluating the Ta 152H flown by an experienced German fighter pilots against a Spitfire in post war mock combat was avoided (see Hermann) because it was feared that the German pilot would bail out and destroy the aircraft. This is a case of the allies being victims of lurid propaganda about the nature of Germans as fanatics. Possibly the comparison was good for the longevity of the Spitfire legend but now we'll never know."""
The Nazi's were fanatics mate, willing to commit all kinds of appaling atrocities in the name of thier fuhrer, thats not propaganda, put yourself in the position of the people who had to deal with these fanatics during the war, your not going to change your attitude toward them just because the wars over, that certainly does'nt apply to all germans but as my father said (who was part of the occupation force post war) "strange how there were no nazis in germany after the war"
The Nazi's were fanatics mate, willing to commit all kinds of appaling atrocities in the name of thier fuhrer, thats not propaganda, put yourself in the position of the people who had to deal with these fanatics during the war, your not going to change your attitude toward them just because the wars over, that certainly does'nt apply to all germans but as my father said (who was part of the occupation force post war) "strange how there were no nazis in germany after the war"
davebender
1st Lieutenant
What does that have to do with German fighter pilots? I doubt 1 out of 100 joined the National Socialist Party.
They weren't suprised, they had an extensive dog fight. While WO Mitchell of NZ RAF 486 is often descrive as a Rookie he would have had at least 300 hours of training before he went to a squadron and then more when he got there. He may have had more total hours than Reschke who would have learned 'on the job' rather than at a fighter school in Canada.
The Tempest wasn't a notworthy turning fighter, the Ta 152H simpy out turned the Tempest, probably easily. This is the side effect of building a wing with a high L/D ratio. Had Michell come across a plain FW 190A his tactic of turning might have worked as even if he couldn't have matched the FW 190 turn he would have just flown around the circle faster. Again the Ta 152H was a new aircraft.
The Ta 152H1 the RAF captured had MW-50 installed. Simply running the engine of C3 achieves much the same result as B4+MW50.
Kryten
Senior Airman
the relevant paragraph was deleted from Siegfried's post, its at the top of my response in """ """
Now if the pilots didn't have death-wishes they would not be more inclined to get themselves shot down at the end of a war than on any other day. How you know that there was a sqn of Spit XIVs if there is no record of the event, why not a 4 plane formation of IXs/XVIs?
I don't claim that Brown's word is the ultimate thruth, my point is that I have seen the Brown's assestment in two different sources and in same form, that I quoted.
Where? Source please.
Source, please, because in the articles what I have seen Brown writes that Ta 152H-1 was more manouvrable over 35,000 ft.
And if you don't know already, 2 British (to be exact new zealanders) Tempest pilots who participated in that Tempests vs 152Hs combat on 14 Apr 45, wrote combat reports and both claimed that they out-turned their German opponents, so Retschke claimed that 152H was more manoeuvrable and Shaw and Short that Tempest was. As I wrote it was rather impossible to reliably assest a plane if it had been only in very limited use.
Juha
Hello Siegfried
According to both Reschke and Short 2 Tempest pilots saw 152s when they had already began their attack runs and Tempests still had their drop tanks on. "...W/O Mitchell was pulling up from attacking Met north of Ludwigslust when we saw 2 Me.109s at 100 ft another 4 109s at about 3000 ft. The 2 109s were coming in to attack us from port rear-quarter. I called up advised my No. 2 instructed him to drop his tanks..."
According to both Reschke and Short 2 Tempest pilots saw 152s when they had already began their attack runs and Tempests still had their drop tanks on. "...W/O Mitchell was pulling up from attacking Met north of Ludwigslust when we saw 2 Me.109s at 100 ft another 4 109s at about 3000 ft. The 2 109s were coming in to attack us from port rear-quarter. I called up advised my No. 2 instructed him to drop his tanks..."
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davebender
1st Lieutenant
Then why was it employed for ground attack?
Now Mitchell was Reschke's 25th kill and he had been 10 month in a front line unit, and because of the history of JG 301s had got instrument flying training, so he had got more flight time than a normal LW fighter pilot during his training, Mitschell was a newcomer.
As I wrote earlier the two other Tempest pilots participating the combat claimed in their combat reports that they out-turned their opponents.
Juha
Mr Juha
1) According to our Anglosaxons friends Tempest at that stage of war was running at 13lb boost and had over 3000hp and was a specilized low level fighter. Ta 152 H had 1750 hp. It is amazing that the other two Tempest pilots did not destroy the Ta s or that Mitchel was unable to escape Rescke, all he had to do was put the throttle forward. But it appears that Tempest ,even with massive power advantage, was not able to dominate the Ta.
2) Mr Juha you must decide, german pilots overclaimed or not? In many threads you question their reliability of claims, but in this thread you use Rescke s 25 claims with no question, to prove that he was very more experienced than Mitchel.
3) It is a fact that you can not deny that Ta 152 H with worse power to weight ratio ,out turned very easily Fw 190A8. Ta 152 , even in this uncomplete form, was tested by the field pilots.
4) Indeed , there were no combats between Spits and Ta s. But an experienced pilot that had faced Spitfires and knew their turning abilities, could judge if Ta 52H abilities was adequate to face Spitfires turning.
5) I agree that Ta 152H with just 1750 hp , and lacking the aerodynamic improvements intended for the normal production machines,were not something special performance wise at low altitude. But they desplayed that the type possesed qualities very very important that some people prefer to ignore
Friendly
JIm
Shortround6
Major General
Because of load lifting ability. and the fact that a plane DOES NOT have to be a great dogfighter in order to be a ground attack machine. Few strafing runs, rocket firings or bomb drops were done in 4-6 G turns. AS long as the plane responded to the controls in a predictable fashion and perhaps more importantly, had decent aileron response at high speed that may be all that was needed.
All the aileron (or roll response) charts at at indicated airspeeds, which is darn close to actual speed at sea level. Trying to do a ground attack run at 350mph (if the plane can go that fast) with severely degraded aileron response is going to difficult no matter how well the plane turns ONCE it has banked.
Hello Jim
I don't know about our Anglosaxon friends, but IIRC Tempest MK V Serie 2 had Sabre IIB +11lb boost 2420hp it was low and medium height fighter, one of the other Tempest pilots claimed one destr (one Ta 152 was lost in that combat) and the other one damaged. As I have wrote it's rather useless to draw far reaching conclusions from limited data. IIRC Gloster Gladiators beated Dewointine D.520s 4 to 0 during Syria battles in 41 and there usually D.520s were attackers, but that doesn't mean that Gladiator was better fighter.
If you bothered to read my messages, I have wrote that some German pilots overclaimed, some badly and some were very accurate claimers. I have no idea of Reschke's claim accuracy, so I used the info from luftwaffe.cz site. And IMHO Reschke was clearly more experienced combat pilot, what is your opinion?
Now there seems to be one combat between Spits and Ta 152s which Spitfires clearly won 2 to 0, but that seems to be the only one. Do you have other info?
Now was Reschke flying Ta 152 H-0 (pre-production) or H-1 (production version)? IIRC he had H-1, so a serial production type
Juha
I don't know about our Anglosaxon friends, but IIRC Tempest MK V Serie 2 had Sabre IIB +11lb boost 2420hp it was low and medium height fighter, one of the other Tempest pilots claimed one destr (one Ta 152 was lost in that combat) and the other one damaged. As I have wrote it's rather useless to draw far reaching conclusions from limited data. IIRC Gloster Gladiators beated Dewointine D.520s 4 to 0 during Syria battles in 41 and there usually D.520s were attackers, but that doesn't mean that Gladiator was better fighter.
If you bothered to read my messages, I have wrote that some German pilots overclaimed, some badly and some were very accurate claimers. I have no idea of Reschke's claim accuracy, so I used the info from luftwaffe.cz site. And IMHO Reschke was clearly more experienced combat pilot, what is your opinion?
Now there seems to be one combat between Spits and Ta 152s which Spitfires clearly won 2 to 0, but that seems to be the only one. Do you have other info?
Now was Reschke flying Ta 152 H-0 (pre-production) or H-1 (production version)? IIRC he had H-1, so a serial production type
Juha
Just not true, at least not for most of them neither for Germans nor even for the bulk of Nazi party members.
When Reschke's squadron surrendered the British officer was more sensible, he told them he regarded them as honourable foes, asked them to stay around on their own recogniscence (ie they weren't locked up). Most were released to their families unusually quickly.
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Hello
I read what Brown writes in AE Quartely 1, the reason why he compared 152H-1 to Spit PR 19 was simpley "since I had done quite a lot of high altitude flying in the pressurised Spitfire XIX on clear air turbulence investigation..."
Juha
I read what Brown writes in AE Quartely 1, the reason why he compared 152H-1 to Spit PR 19 was simpley "since I had done quite a lot of high altitude flying in the pressurised Spitfire XIX on clear air turbulence investigation..."
Juha
I didn't know the Ta 152H had a weight problem with its armamanet? The MG213 and MK213 rotary guns had at least 50% to 100% more fire power than the equivalent MG 151/20 canon and MK 108 30mm canon. That would have at least allowed deletion of at least 1/3rd of the guns for a considerable weight and drag saving. In addition the tendancy of 'reciprocting' guns to jam under high G would also have been eliminated in the rotary guns: that was another intention of the specification, a vast improvement in reliabillity under combat contitions. The MG 213 20mm with 1000m/s also had a much higher muzzle velocity than the standard Luftwaffe MG 151/20 though the MK 213C fired the standard 30mm ammunition. The rotary guns also had the abillity to draw from long ammunition magazines; which likely would have made them ideal in cutting down ammunition handling.
It's worth quoting Reschke's impression of the fight becaus he refers to something you refered to, he said he had plenty of controllabillity remaining.
WILLI RESCHKE's version, from his book "Jagdgeschwader 301/302 "Wild Sau" - In Defense of the Reich with the Bf 109, Fw 190 and Ta 152":
"Attacks by enemy fighter-bombers became more frequent in the areas around the airfields, and Tempests were seen more frequently. From Neustadt-Glewe we could see them hanging in the air like hawks, ready to swoop down on anything that moved. During the late afternoon hours on 14 April 1945 two of these aircraft were seen attacking the railway line from Ludwigslust to Schwerin, which passed just a few kilometers from the airfield. Immediately three Ta 152's took off flown by Oberstleutnant Auffhammer, Oberfeldwebel Sattler and Oberfelwebel Reschke.
As our takeoff was in the same general diretion as the railway line, we reached the Tempests' attack area shortly after takeoff. I was flying as number three in the formation, and as we reached the area where the Tempests were I saw Sattler's Ta 152 go down for no apparent reason. Now it was two against two, and the low-level battle began.
The Termpest was known to be a very fast aircraft, with which the English had been able to catch and shoot down the V-1. In this engagement, however, speed played a less important role: at low level an aircraft's maneuverability was more important. As I approached, my opponent pulled up from a low-level attack and I attacked from out of a left-hand turn.
Both pilots realized that this was a fight to the finish, and from the outset both used every tactical and piloting ploy in an attempt to gain an advantage. At that height neither could afford to make a mistake, and for the first time I was able to see what the Ta 152 could really do.
Twisting and turning, never more than fifty meters above the ground, I closed the range on the Tempest. At no time did I get the feeling that my machine had reached the limit of it's performance. The Tempest pilot quite understandably had to undertake risky maneuvers to aviod a fatal burst from my guns. As my Ta 152 closed in on the Tempest, I could see that it was on the verge of rolling the other way: an indication that it could not turn any tighter. The first burst from my guns struck the Tempest in the rear fuselage and tail. The Tempest pilot reacted by immediately flicking his aircraft into a right-hand turn, which increased my advantage even further. There was no escape for the Tempest now. I pressed the firing button once again, but my guns remained silent. Recharging them did no good: my guns refused to fire even a single shot. I can't remember whom and what I cursed at that moment. Luckily the Tempest pilot was unaware of my bad luck, for he had already had a sample. He continued to twist and turn, and I positioned my Ta 152 so that he always had a view of my machine's belly. Then came the moment when the Tempest went into a high-speed stall: it rolled left and crashed into a wood. This combat was certainly unique, having been played out at heights which were often just ten meters above the trees and rooftops. Throughout I never had the feeling that my Ta 152 had reached its performance limit, instead it reacted to the slightest control input, even though we were practically at ground level. Oberstleutnant Auffhammer also gained the upper hand against his Tempest, but in the end the enemy succeeded in escaping to the west. As the combat had taken place just a few kilometers from the airfield, in the late afternoon we drove out to the scene and discovered that Oberfeldwebel Sattler's Ta 152 and my Tempest had crashed within 500 meters of each other. The treetops had absorbed some of the force of the crash and the Tempest looked like it had made a forced landing. The damage inflicted by my cannon shells was clearly visible on the tail and rear fuselage and the pilot was still strapped in his cockpit. It turned out that he was a New Zealander, Warrant Officer O.J. Mitchell of No.486 Squadron, Royal Air Force. The next day the two fallen pilots were buried with military honors at Neustadt-Glewe cemetary.
For a long time that evening the crash of Oberfeldwebel Sattler occupied the minds of the pilots and the many witnesses who had observed the combat from the airfield. The engagement had not even begun when Sattler went down, as both Tempest pilots were still busy with their low-level attacks on the railway line and incapable of posing any threat to the Ta-152's. Moreover he was too experienced a fox to place himself in a disadvantageous position in such a situation. We could not find an explanation for his crash, which will remain a mystery forever. This was the third crash of a Ta 152, and all were unexplained."
The Crash of Sattlers Ta 152H was witnessed from the ground and he was simply not seen to recover from a dive. The Ta 152 had a reputation for its rudders seizing mechanically which required a few kicks to release. It may have simply been a mechanical failure.
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What puts the lie to that is the fact that Rescke was able to turn inside the Tempest, get his guns on it, and then continue to close and get his guns on it again. W.O. Mitchells Tempest stalled in a turn and then spun into the ground while Reschke writes that he was nowhere near his aircrafts limmits and had perfect control sensitivity.
What other Tempest pilots? There were non engaged by the Ta 152's. Those pilots were smoking an early form of weed are engaged Me 109's or FW 190's.
