Dora vs Tempest

[Al. S. Neworth]

Tempest had A to A Kill ratio of 7:1 in its favour (6:1 in its favour against enemy single-seat fighters).
The Luftwaffe was seriously depleted by the time the Tempest was freed from taking on the V1 "doodlebugs", but proved incredibly successful when pitted against 109 Gs and Ks, and FW190 As to Ds.
From what I read, they ran into a few Ta152Hs once, and once only; the result was one Ta152 shot down, and one Tempest V, flown by an inexperienced Warrant Officer pilot, that tried to turn inside for a deflection shot, but stalled, and crashed into a wood (the encounter had been at very low altitude).
The Tempest was responsible for 20 262 kills by VE Day.

 

[bada]

The Tempest was responsible for 20 262 kills by VE Day.

Well that's some serious numbers, on it's own the tempest killed 1/5 of all the LW production... bombers included....

Sarcasm inside...

 

[swampyankee]

I think

Well that's some serious numbers, on it's own the tempest killed 1/5 of all the LW production... bombers included....

Sarcasm inside...

I think it should read "twenty Me262 kills."

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well that's some serious numbers, on it's own the tempest killed 1/5 of all the LW production... bombers included....

Sarcasm inside...

I don't think you understand what he wrote...

He said 20 (as in twenty) 262 (as in Me 262)

 

[CORSNING]

The following figures are for a Typical Fw 190D with MW 50 (most
did not have) when it became (officially) operational on 18 December
1944.

Altitude / Speed / Climb
Meters / Mph / Fpm
S.L..........376 [382] / 4428
-1,000...388 [395] / 4388
-2,000...400 [408] / 4124
-3,000...406 [412] / 4103
-4,000...416 [421] / 3985
-5,000...427 [432] / 3493
-6,000...427 [432] / 2991
-7,000...421 [426] / 2499
-8,000...413 [418] / 1987
-9,000...403 [408] / 1485
10,000...391 [396] / 984

Speed with ET 504 [without].

Combat weight: 9,590 lb.
Jumo 213A (MW50): 2,071 hp. (2,100 PS) / 1.8 ata
Wing Area: 196.98 sq. Ft.
Wing Loading: 48.69 lb./sq. ft.
Power Loading: 4.631 lb./hp.

Ceilings:
Combat (1000fpm): 32,700 ft.
Operational (500fpm): 36,200 ft.
Service (100 fpm): 38,575 ft.

Pilot plus Notes:

Donald Caldwell wrote of the Fw 190D-9 operational debut in his
"The JG 26 War Diary Volume Two 1943-1945". December 17, 1944:
"The new airplane lacked the high turn rate and incredible rate of
roll of its close-coupled radial-engine predecessor. Its 2,240 hp. with
MW 50 gave it an excellent acceleration in combat situation. It also
climbed and dived more rapidly than the Fw 190A. Many of the
early models were not equipped with tanks for methanol, which was
in very short supply in any event. The D-9 was a bit faster."

From www.luftwaff-experten.org(http://www.luftwaff-experten.org)) :
"The 2240 PS maximum output that is often quoted for the Jumo213A
with MW 50 is a bit of a mystery. My collection of reports from
Junkers that date up to the end of the war, never mention a 2240 PS
setting. According to Junkers and Focke-Wulf documents the 2100 PS
SEP was the maximum output for all production D-9s that entered
service during WW2."

On Pages 119-121 in "Longnose" by Deitmar Hermann, Lt. Ossenkop
summarized the differences between the Fw 190D-9 and Fw 190A-8.
Page 121 part 7, "Takeoff and climb were rather better than in the
A-8. It was possible to make tighter turns before the onset of flow
separation. In a dive, the D-9 was far superior to the A-8 with its
drag-producing radial engine." He felt that the D-9 was equal to
most enemy A/C above 4,000 meters up to its maximum boost
altitude (est: 6-7,000 meters).

Lt. Ossenkop compared the Fw 190D-9 to its opponents:
vs. Tempest (V): Almost equal in level flight, a lengthy pursuit was
usually fruitless. The D-9 climbed and turned better, but was
inferior in a dive. Lt. Wssenkop compared the D-9 to the Spitfire,
Mustang and Thunderbolt, but that's another story.

The Fw 190D-9 was tested by the Army Air Forces Air Materiel Command.
Maneuverability and Aerobatics: The outstanding maneuverability trait
of this airplane is its rate of roll. In this respect it compares well with the
P-51D or P-47, but it cannot match the rate of roll of the F-80 or P-38J.
The radius of turn, however, is poor and elevator forces in tight turns are
excessive. Constant stabilizer adjustments is required in turns and if pulled
in too abruptly a fast stall with little warning will occur. The airplane
responds well to controls in all other fly through maneuvers attempted.

OK then, I would gladly do a side by side comparison of the Fw 190D-9
and Tempest V but by the time the D-9 with MW 50 came along the
Tempest was using 100/150 fuel with +13 lb. boost, I think....?

If anyone has dates of when +11 and then +13 lb. boost was introduced
into operational squadrons, I would greatly appreciate the information and
the sources.

 

[GrauGeist]

The Tempest was responsible for 20 262 kills by VE Day.

While that may seem impressive, just how many of those kills were achieved while the jet was taking off or landing?

 

[Glider]

While that may seem impressive, just how many of those kills were achieved while the jet was taking off or landing?

Probably most if not all of them. However to be fair, they do seem to have caught them better than most. The high speed low altitude performance on the Tempest must have helped

 

[swampyankee]

While that may seem impressive, just how many of those kills were achieved while the jet was taking off or landing?

They were just as shot down. Tactics is making sure a fight is unfair in your favor.

 

[pbehn]

They were just as shot down. Tactics is making sure a fight is unfair in your favor.

One LW ace said that the Tempest was a very dangerous opponent for the Me262 at low level.

 

[michael rauls]

One LW ace said that the Tempest was a very dangerous opponent for the Me262 at low level.

We may be thinking of the same quote but I remember reading one of the well known Luftwaffe aces( I believe it was Galland but not 100% sure) say that he thought the Tempest was the greatest threat to his jets at lower altitude.

 

[pbehn]

We may be thinking of the same quote but I remember reading one of the well known Luftwaffe aces( I believe it was Galland but not 100% sure) say that he thought the Tempest was the greatest threat to his jets at lower altitude.

None of them were stupid and they all had a fantastic sense of self preservation, that is why they survived. The Tempest was fast at low level, fairly agile and had 4 cannon, only a fool wouldn't respect it. Even today a Tempest would be bad news for an F-35B coming in to land.

 

[GrauGeist]

They were just as shot down. Tactics is making sure a fight is unfair in your favor.

True, however, there is a difference between exploiting the Me262's Achilles' heel and meeting it in combat.

Simply exclaiming that the Tempest downed 20 isn't doing the Tempest's fighting abilities any justice.

 

[Mad Dog]

True, however, there is a difference between exploiting the Me262's Achilles' heel and meeting it in combat.

Simply exclaiming that the Tempest downed 20 isn't doing the Tempest's fighting abilities any justice.

Not all the Me262s shot down by Tempests were kills as the jets were landing, as this list of some of the Tempest combat reports shows. It seems the high speed of the 262 forced it into wide turns the slower Tempest could cut across and get a deflection shot in.

 

[HarryMann]

Not to mention the Sabre engines notorious unreliability, an issue that was never really fixed.

.

I think pretty well all it's issues were sorted, once EE took over Napiers … maybe itemise what you think wasn't?
Closterman didn't seem to be concerned all the time it would let him down either.
And was being developed to well over 3000 HP by 1945, which wouldn't be the case if it still had serious issues

 

[HarryMann]

What ?!

First off Messerschmidt designed the Me-262 to be an air-superiority fighter, it was Hitler who wanted it to fullfill the fighter-bomber role, NOT Messerschmidt.

Secondly Messerschmidt never claimed the Me-209 to be better than the Me-262.

Thirdly where the heck have you heard the Me-410 was supposed to reach 680 km/h ??? The design goal was 625-630 km/h !



Hitler wasn't really naive, he was paranoid as heck though.



That is completely made up on your part Civettone.



I've got the very same chart and one thing is for sure, you're not reading it correctly!



You need glasses Civettone cause on that very chart the Dora-9 exceeds 703 km/h at 5.7km, which "oddly" enough is exactly the same as on the official leistung chart I presented. Note the SL speed as-well plz, ~ 615 km/h.



692 km/h at 5.4km with ETC-504 - sounds correct.



The above figures look right enough...



Thats just being ridiculously simplistic ignorant on your part Civettone, cause its not wing-loading which matters, its lift-loading, which in turn is dependant on CLmax. And like the P-51 the Tempest features a laminar flow type airfoil, which in short means low drag but also low lift pr. area - hence why a underpowered FW-190 Jabo will turn with the Tempest. The FW-190 on the other hand features a very high lift airfoil (NACA 23000 series) with a CLmax around 1.58 - 1.64, hence why the FW-190 was famous for its excellent responsiveness. So in this department the Dora-9 is far superior to the Tempest.



Again the Dora-9 is superior.



As explained above you're incorrect in your assessment Civettone. The FW-190 Dora-9 featured both better instantanous and sustained turn performance than the Tempest, and the FW-190 already possessed the best high speed handling of any piston engined fighter. So the Tempest would be at a real loss if the fight was at high speed.



As have already been told German comparative testing concluded the FW-190 Dora-9 to be a much superior dogfighter compared to the Tempest, and the RAF's own tests only reinforce that conclusion.

The Tempest had spring-tab ailerons and was renowned for light yet powerful controls right up to its max permitted diving speed, Vne.

 

[HarryMann]

Probably most if not all of them. However to be fair, they do seem to have caught them better than most. The high speed low altitude performance on the Tempest must have helped

It was the ability of if the Tempest to accelerate from a cruise power setting to a combat /intercept speed, surely, not the speed itself necessarily

 

[Jagdflieger]

Comparison of the Fw 190D-9 and Tempest V - well!?? I guess we will never know

The issue to me in a comparison would be to have the same trained and experienced pilots in both aircraft's. No doubt both aircraft's were very capable fighter-planes.
But by the time the Fw 190-9 came into service - there weren't really many well trained and experienced Luftwaffe pilots around - rather the opposite.
As such it was really the pilot that gave the edge not necessarily the aircraft. especially in hindsight towards the Luftwaffe.

Regards
Jagdflieger

 

[Al. S. Neworth]

It`s an excellent resource IMHO, but a word of warning : I`ve noticed especially about the first six months of 1944 that the subtypes are not always 100% accurate.

Thinking about conversions and rebuilds here.. for example the first G-5/6/AS are reported on those TOEs (rather, equipment 'movement' reports) list in June/July the earliest IIRC (which I why I was surprised when you said somewhere you saw /AS aircraft in the spring - which unit..? ). Hhowever it is certain that the first lucky units had them as early as March/April 1944 already.

For example, it is evidenced byKnoke`s diary and some photographs of his CO`s aircraft which is clearly a G-5/AS or G-6/AS with methanol boost (AS cowling + Red legs clearly visible, date of photo certain because he received some award which`s date is known, Knoke mentions the same in his diary).. here`s the beast :

View attachment 390545

The unit strenght returns of ww2.dk however only lists ordinary Neubau G-5s arriving... no /AS, nothing.

I presume they reported dataplates and serial numbers, which, for some early conversions, may have not been stamped over in the factory, and on paper those aircraft were still 'G-5's and 'G-6's, or the designation was just not yet standard etc. And, most /AS aircraft until mid-1944 were conversions... same about MW-50. No clue in the Bewegungsmeldungen which aircraft have these... the precise subtypes are obviously not listed in many cases, which as I said, probably a result of the conversion, not to mention there was no clear designation for the aircraft with MW-50 initially (unofficial things like G-6/MW and the like appearing sometimes..).

For this reason, the exact type structure are difficult to arrive at for early 1944, but it seemed to it`s specific thing to that period, which can be explained by large number of conversions, and interim designations suddenly appearing.

I can't find the post I wanted to reply to, so I'm placing it here: Somebody wrote, "The D-9 was a high altitude interceptor ..."
That is not accurate. The D-9's wings were too short for high altitude flight. One reason that Kurt Tank deigned the Ta-152-H.
Now, that -- on paper at least -- was a truly magnificent fighter. The problem with many Luftwaffe aircraft by 1945 was a lack of spares, engines, and sabotage by the slave labourers building them.
Add the inexperienced pilots flying them (more in the xase of older fighters like the 109s and Fw190-A series), and you have a perfect storm of problems even before encountering Allied fighters.
I would still choose the Tempest V over any poston-engined fighter below 18,500ft.
Above that? Spit XIV. Or Ta-152H.

 

[tomo pauk]

I can't find the post I wanted to reply to, so I'm placing it here: Somebody wrote, "The D-9 was a high altitude interceptor ..."
That is not accurate. The D-9's wings were too short for high altitude flight. One reason that Kurt Tank deigned the Ta-152-H.

D-9 was not as good as Allied best at high altitudes mostly because of the engine installed. Aero engine with just 1 stage of supercharging (the Jumo 213A was one of those) will be running out of steam above 20000 ft vs. another comparable aero engine that has 2 stages of supercharging (like eg. Merlin 60s and 70s series, or R-2800 with a help by a turbo, or V-1710 with the help by a turbo).
A Fw 190 with 2-stage supercharged Jumo 213F was supposed to be one of best ww2 piston-engined fighters even in high altitudes, ditto for the Ta-152C with the 2-stage supercharged DB-603L, despite both of them having small and short wings.
power chart Jumo 213A
power chart 2-stage Merlins

FWIW