Dora vs Tempest (1 Viewer)

Which one was best?


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Marcel

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2 of my favorites. I believe they saw eachother in combat on several occasions in the last year of the war. So which one is best?
 
hmmm, well, two totally different planes that excelled in the roll required of them.

Dora - High altitude intercepter
Tempest - Low level attack plane.

They saw each other in combat mostly when the Dora's were being used as CAP for the ME-262 airfields to protect the jets during take off and landings. I don't know how they faired against one another. My guess is, it's depends on the altitude they fought at. At low levels, I would give an edge to the Tempest. Higher elevations, I would give an edge to the Dora. But again, that's just my guess.

IMO, we are not really comparing apples to apples here.

Also, those are two of my favorite planes also. If I had to choose, I'd go with the Tempest.
 
This is a good poll!

I don't know what to vote for!

Another good contender agains't the Tempest is the FW 190A. They fought each other over the English Channel a couple times, when the Fock Wulfs ran "Jabo" missions to harrass the English coast and country.
 
As always.. Not just the best pilot, but the pilot that employed the best tactics for a given situation that optimized advantage and exploited weaknesses..

... and a little luck never hurt....

The Tempest would be better in a dive and it could hold it's own on the deck.
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hmmm, well, two totally different planes that excelled in the roll required of them.

Dora - High altitude intercepter
Tempest - Low level attack plane.

They saw each other in combat mostly when the Dora's were being used as CAP for the ME-262 airfields to protect the jets during take off and landings. I don't know how they faired against one another. My guess is, it's depends on the altitude they fought at. At low levels, I would give an edge to the Tempest. Higher elevations, I would give an edge to the Dora. But again, that's just my guess.

IMO, we are not really comparing apples to apples here.

Also, those are two of my favorite planes also. If I had to choose, I'd go with the Tempest.
Well I'm not sure, but I think the Tempest was designed to be a high altitude interceptor as well. As the Typhoon with it's thick wing had disappointing performance at altitude, they designed the Tempest based on the Typhoon with thinner wings and some other modifications. Performance at higher altitude was much better than that of the Typhoon. So I don't think it was basicly a low altitude attack plane, but it became one when it ran out of aerial targets.
 
well III./JG 54 failed in it's protection of Kommando Nowotny every time and the Dora high cover principle was dropped on the spot with III./JG 54 being absorbed by JG 26 Dora outfit which was in continual aerial combat with RAF Tempests and Spits which really took it to the Doras of JG 26.
 
Tempest hands down. With a speed of 435 mph at 17,500ft - around the same optimal height as the Dora - superior armament and great manoeuvrability the Dora had to wait for its big brother to come and help it out: the Ta 152. I read a Me 262 ace - I think his name was Lange - claim that the Tempest was the Me 262's most dangerous opponent...

I don't see what the Dora could bring to bear against the Tempest.

Well I'm not sure, but I think the Tempest was designed to be a high altitude interceptor as well. As the Typhoon with it's thick wing had disappointing performance at altitude, they designed the Tempest based on the Typhoon with thinner wings and some other modifications. Performance at higher altitude was much better than that of the Typhoon. So I don't think it was basicly a low altitude attack plane, but it became one when it ran out of aerial targets.
Just quoting this again because it seems some people didn't get this. The Tempest only became a succesful low level attack plane when it had nothing more to dogfight.

Another good contender agains't the Tempest is the FW 190A. They fought each other over the English Channel a couple times, when the Fock Wulfs ran "Jabo" missions to harrass the English coast and country.
No my friend, that was the Typhoon.

Kris
 
It performed better? Do you have any figures to back that up?

The Tempest was faster at all altitudes. Zoom climb of the Tempest was unmatched. Handling of the Tempest was excellent, even considered better than the Spitfire.
What was better on the Fw 190D? Perhaps roll rate? Turn rate was probably equal.
And again, armament of the Tempest was also far superior.

I think some of you are more basing your judgment on emotions than on figures.
Kris
 
it doesn't matter when your enemy has the altitude advantage, an example

the French ace P. Clostermann on a late war mission with his wingman got jumped with their flight suit over their eyes with his wingman getting vaporized by 2cm MinenGeschoss rounds and Pierre's Temp got smeared so badly he made a crash landing. Pierre's report later he was quoted as saying that Rudi Wurf of II./JG 301 shot his wingman down and another Tempest pilot of the squad as well as almost himself. further investigation finds that Rudi indeed shoot down 1 Tempest but another pilot and from another squadron.

whomever has the top advantage of either a/c wins

go get a copy of the new eagle-editions Dora 9 book and be enlightened with the many first person accts as you will be glad you did..... Mine came today 8)
 
it doesn't matter when your enemy has the altitude advantage
8)
Of course that's always the case with planes with performance and armament so similar. But that's not the fun of debating is it? The question is, if the higher flying pilot would fly a Tempest, would he have more or less trouble taking advantage of the situation then when he's flying a Dora.
 
is it debating or arguing the same points over and over again like we have for years, which fighter is best, that type of thing. in normality it is going to be nigh impossible to have a Tempest with non support aerialy against a beleagured single Dora. the dora units were overwhelmed and they were not able to prove themselves on any equal terms except whom got the height and the first shots in
 
It performed better? Do you have any figures to back that up?
I dont base my opinions on ur precious little "figures"... The mean nothing in my equation..... As Erich pointed out, the were other contributing factors involved in combat than the same old "this ones top speed was faster...." bullsh!t...

Did u forget that some pilots "illegally" had their mechanics tweek their machines???

I base most of my Ofu*kingpinion on what the people who flew the craft/fought the craft in the air have to say....
 
So if you mainly read the accounts of the Dora pilots, I suppose you would get a distorted view. Or that Clostermann story, fascinating as it may be, doesn't mean much if it's not put in a statistical frame. Else you would simply conclude that the Tempest was inferior.
Going with stories often leads to wrong interpretations. In fact, most of the errors in WW2 aircraft data come from these. Stories which were never backed up by figures.

German and allied test pilots often had to take up the question of comparing aircraft. They did this with test flights resulting in specific data on climb rate, speed, roll rate, turn rate, handling, etc. I think these guys knew what they were doing...
Kris
 
It performed better? Do you have any figures to back that up?

I have.

The Tempest was faster at all altitudes.

Thats untrue though.

I have a suspicion you've been fooled by some figures on Mike William's site...

Zoom climb of the Tempest was unmatched.

What is that based off ?

Handling of the Tempest was excellent, even considered better than the Spitfire.

The handling of the FW-190 was probably the best of any fighter of WW2, high speed handling being better than that of any other piston engined fighter.

What was better on the Fw 190D? Perhaps roll rate? Turn rate was probably equal.

The FW-190 Dora-9 turned considerably better than the Tempest, and roll rate was MUCH higher. The Tempest didn't feature better maneuverability than a FW-190 Jabo as evident in RAF testing.

And again, armament of the Tempest was also far superior.

Far superior ?? I'd say its about equal here considering the MG151/20 fires Minen rounds.

I think some of you are more basing your judgment on emotions than on figures.

Considering what you just wrote above I find that comment very ironic.
 
It means that the shells had an explosive charge in them. According to Soren only German cannon shells had this...

And yes Soren I do take Mike Williams seriously.

According to the 10 test flights on FW 190 D-9 Flight Trials the Dora was slower at all altitudes:
Max rate of climb 4380 ft/min @ sea level
Time to 10,000 ft. 2.8 mins.
Time to 20,000 ft. 6.55 mins.
Time to 30,000 ft. 14.0 mins

Level speed
Speed at sea level M.S. gear* 376 mph true airspeed
Max. speed in M.S. gear* 411 mph true airspeed @ 6,600 ft. FTH
Max. speed in F.S. gear* 432 mph true airspeed @ 18,400 ft. FTH
Speed at 28,000 ft. 405 mph true airspeed

And take a look at this American test: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/tempest/material-command-tempest.pdf
again stressing the excellent handling of the aircraft. The only negative thing mentioned is that the turn rate was worse than that of the Typhoon.

The handling of the FW-190 was probably the best of any fighter of WW2, high speed handling being better than that of any other piston engined fighter.
This British test says different. And they were not biased as the rest of the report was very positive.

We already had a discussion about that website but I believe it as much anything you might come up with. To me the teething problem of the Dora lasted so long that the arrival of the Ta 152H made it obsolete. By then the Tempest was already one year operational.

And perhaps Lesofprimus can take a look at these battle accounts by the Tempest if that's what he's looking for:
Tempest V Performance

Kris
 

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