2 of my favorites. I believe they saw eachother in combat on several occasions in the last year of the war. So which one is best?
Dora vs Tempest
- Thread starter Marcel
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Thorlifter
Captain
hmmm, well, two totally different planes that excelled in the roll required of them.
Dora - High altitude intercepter
Tempest - Low level attack plane.
They saw each other in combat mostly when the Dora's were being used as CAP for the ME-262 airfields to protect the jets during take off and landings. I don't know how they faired against one another. My guess is, it's depends on the altitude they fought at. At low levels, I would give an edge to the Tempest. Higher elevations, I would give an edge to the Dora. But again, that's just my guess.
IMO, we are not really comparing apples to apples here.
Also, those are two of my favorite planes also. If I had to choose, I'd go with the Tempest.
Dora - High altitude intercepter
Tempest - Low level attack plane.
They saw each other in combat mostly when the Dora's were being used as CAP for the ME-262 airfields to protect the jets during take off and landings. I don't know how they faired against one another. My guess is, it's depends on the altitude they fought at. At low levels, I would give an edge to the Tempest. Higher elevations, I would give an edge to the Dora. But again, that's just my guess.
IMO, we are not really comparing apples to apples here.
Also, those are two of my favorite planes also. If I had to choose, I'd go with the Tempest.
Soundbreaker Welch?
Tech Sergeant
This is a good poll!
I don't know what to vote for!
Another good contender agains't the Tempest is the FW 190A. They fought each other over the English Channel a couple times, when the Fock Wulfs ran "Jabo" missions to harrass the English coast and country.
I don't know what to vote for!
Another good contender agains't the Tempest is the FW 190A. They fought each other over the English Channel a couple times, when the Fock Wulfs ran "Jabo" missions to harrass the English coast and country.
As always.. Not just the best pilot, but the pilot that employed the best tactics for a given situation that optimized advantage and exploited weaknesses..
... and a little luck never hurt....
The Tempest would be better in a dive and it could hold it's own on the deck.
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... and a little luck never hurt....
The Tempest would be better in a dive and it could hold it's own on the deck.
.
- Thread starter
- #5
Well I'm not sure, but I think the Tempest was designed to be a high altitude interceptor as well. As the Typhoon with it's thick wing had disappointing performance at altitude, they designed the Tempest based on the Typhoon with thinner wings and some other modifications. Performance at higher altitude was much better than that of the Typhoon. So I don't think it was basicly a low altitude attack plane, but it became one when it ran out of aerial targets.
Erich
the old Sage
well III./JG 54 failed in it's protection of Kommando Nowotny every time and the Dora high cover principle was dropped on the spot with III./JG 54 being absorbed by JG 26 Dora outfit which was in continual aerial combat with RAF Tempests and Spits which really took it to the Doras of JG 26.
Civettone
Tech Sergeant
Tempest hands down. With a speed of 435 mph at 17,500ft - around the same optimal height as the Dora - superior armament and great manoeuvrability the Dora had to wait for its big brother to come and help it out: the Ta 152. I read a Me 262 ace - I think his name was Lange - claim that the Tempest was the Me 262's most dangerous opponent...
I don't see what the Dora could bring to bear against the Tempest.
Kris
I don't see what the Dora could bring to bear against the Tempest.
Just quoting this again because it seems some people didn't get this. The Tempest only became a succesful low level attack plane when it had nothing more to dogfight.
No my friend, that was the Typhoon.
Kris
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
I voted for the Dora, as it was a stop gap to the High Altitude issue, not the answer, and performed better than the Tempest at the "usual" combat altitude...
Civettone
Tech Sergeant
It performed better? Do you have any figures to back that up?
The Tempest was faster at all altitudes. Zoom climb of the Tempest was unmatched. Handling of the Tempest was excellent, even considered better than the Spitfire.
What was better on the Fw 190D? Perhaps roll rate? Turn rate was probably equal.
And again, armament of the Tempest was also far superior.
I think some of you are more basing your judgment on emotions than on figures.
Kris
The Tempest was faster at all altitudes. Zoom climb of the Tempest was unmatched. Handling of the Tempest was excellent, even considered better than the Spitfire.
What was better on the Fw 190D? Perhaps roll rate? Turn rate was probably equal.
And again, armament of the Tempest was also far superior.
I think some of you are more basing your judgment on emotions than on figures.
Kris
Erich
the old Sage
it doesn't matter when your enemy has the altitude advantage, an example
the French ace P. Clostermann on a late war mission with his wingman got jumped with their flight suit over their eyes with his wingman getting vaporized by 2cm MinenGeschoss rounds and Pierre's Temp got smeared so badly he made a crash landing. Pierre's report later he was quoted as saying that Rudi Wurf of II./JG 301 shot his wingman down and another Tempest pilot of the squad as well as almost himself. further investigation finds that Rudi indeed shoot down 1 Tempest but another pilot and from another squadron.
whomever has the top advantage of either a/c wins
go get a copy of the new eagle-editions Dora 9 book and be enlightened with the many first person accts as you will be glad you did..... Mine came today 8)
the French ace P. Clostermann on a late war mission with his wingman got jumped with their flight suit over their eyes with his wingman getting vaporized by 2cm MinenGeschoss rounds and Pierre's Temp got smeared so badly he made a crash landing. Pierre's report later he was quoted as saying that Rudi Wurf of II./JG 301 shot his wingman down and another Tempest pilot of the squad as well as almost himself. further investigation finds that Rudi indeed shoot down 1 Tempest but another pilot and from another squadron.
whomever has the top advantage of either a/c wins
go get a copy of the new eagle-editions Dora 9 book and be enlightened with the many first person accts as you will be glad you did..... Mine came today 8)
- Thread starter
- #11
Of course that's always the case with planes with performance and armament so similar. But that's not the fun of debating is it? The question is, if the higher flying pilot would fly a Tempest, would he have more or less trouble taking advantage of the situation then when he's flying a Dora.
Erich
the old Sage
is it debating or arguing the same points over and over again like we have for years, which fighter is best, that type of thing. in normality it is going to be nigh impossible to have a Tempest with non support aerialy against a beleagured single Dora. the dora units were overwhelmed and they were not able to prove themselves on any equal terms except whom got the height and the first shots in
Aussie1001
Staff Sergeant
That may be enrich but i'm just gonna go tempest because l like it....
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
I dont base my opinions on ur precious little "figures"... The mean nothing in my equation..... As Erich pointed out, the were other contributing factors involved in combat than the same old "this ones top speed was faster...." bullsh!t...
Did u forget that some pilots "illegally" had their mechanics tweek their machines???
I base most of my Ofu*kingpinion on what the people who flew the craft/fought the craft in the air have to say....
Civettone
Tech Sergeant
So if you mainly read the accounts of the Dora pilots, I suppose you would get a distorted view. Or that Clostermann story, fascinating as it may be, doesn't mean much if it's not put in a statistical frame. Else you would simply conclude that the Tempest was inferior.
Going with stories often leads to wrong interpretations. In fact, most of the errors in WW2 aircraft data come from these. Stories which were never backed up by figures.
German and allied test pilots often had to take up the question of comparing aircraft. They did this with test flights resulting in specific data on climb rate, speed, roll rate, turn rate, handling, etc. I think these guys knew what they were doing...
Kris
Going with stories often leads to wrong interpretations. In fact, most of the errors in WW2 aircraft data come from these. Stories which were never backed up by figures.
German and allied test pilots often had to take up the question of comparing aircraft. They did this with test flights resulting in specific data on climb rate, speed, roll rate, turn rate, handling, etc. I think these guys knew what they were doing...
Kris
I have.
Thats untrue though.
I have a suspicion you've been fooled by some figures on Mike William's site...
What is that based off ?
The handling of the FW-190 was probably the best of any fighter of WW2, high speed handling being better than that of any other piston engined fighter.
The FW-190 Dora-9 turned considerably better than the Tempest, and roll rate was MUCH higher. The Tempest didn't feature better maneuverability than a FW-190 Jabo as evident in RAF testing.
Far superior ?? I'd say its about equal here considering the MG151/20 fires Minen rounds.
Considering what you just wrote above I find that comment very ironic.
eddie_brunette
Senior Airman
ill go for the tempest for versatility at different altitude, armament, but if i can give it a weak point, ONE SHOT CAN DISABLE THE ENGINE, same with p51.
fw190's was always a bit overated to me, same with the p51's (my very personal view)
fw190's was always a bit overated to me, same with the p51's (my very personal view)
Soundbreaker Welch?
Tech Sergeant
You're right! Both the Typhoon and FW 190A were the little brothers of scarier things.
Thorlifter
Captain
Soren, what are Minen rounds? I'll look it up, but I would like to hear an explanation from you guys.
Civettone
Tech Sergeant
It means that the shells had an explosive charge in them. According to Soren only German cannon shells had this...
And yes Soren I do take Mike Williams seriously.
According to the 10 test flights on FW 190 D-9 Flight Trials the Dora was slower at all altitudes:
Max rate of climb 4380 ft/min @ sea level
Time to 10,000 ft. 2.8 mins.
Time to 20,000 ft. 6.55 mins.
Time to 30,000 ft. 14.0 mins
Level speed
Speed at sea level M.S. gear* 376 mph true airspeed
Max. speed in M.S. gear* 411 mph true airspeed @ 6,600 ft. FTH
Max. speed in F.S. gear* 432 mph true airspeed @ 18,400 ft. FTH
Speed at 28,000 ft. 405 mph true airspeed
And take a look at this American test: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/tempest/material-command-tempest.pdf
again stressing the excellent handling of the aircraft. The only negative thing mentioned is that the turn rate was worse than that of the Typhoon.
We already had a discussion about that website but I believe it as much anything you might come up with. To me the teething problem of the Dora lasted so long that the arrival of the Ta 152H made it obsolete. By then the Tempest was already one year operational.
And perhaps Lesofprimus can take a look at these battle accounts by the Tempest if that's what he's looking for:
Tempest V Performance
Kris
And yes Soren I do take Mike Williams seriously.
According to the 10 test flights on FW 190 D-9 Flight Trials the Dora was slower at all altitudes:
Max rate of climb 4380 ft/min @ sea level
Time to 10,000 ft. 2.8 mins.
Time to 20,000 ft. 6.55 mins.
Time to 30,000 ft. 14.0 mins
Level speed
Speed at sea level M.S. gear* 376 mph true airspeed
Max. speed in M.S. gear* 411 mph true airspeed @ 6,600 ft. FTH
Max. speed in F.S. gear* 432 mph true airspeed @ 18,400 ft. FTH
Speed at 28,000 ft. 405 mph true airspeed
And take a look at this American test: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/tempest/material-command-tempest.pdf
again stressing the excellent handling of the aircraft. The only negative thing mentioned is that the turn rate was worse than that of the Typhoon.
This British test says different. And they were not biased as the rest of the report was very positive.
We already had a discussion about that website but I believe it as much anything you might come up with. To me the teething problem of the Dora lasted so long that the arrival of the Ta 152H made it obsolete. By then the Tempest was already one year operational.
And perhaps Lesofprimus can take a look at these battle accounts by the Tempest if that's what he's looking for:
Tempest V Performance
Kris
