so you guys with much more knowlage than me, think this may be "experts" jumping in with their own opinions ?
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Dream liner down in India on air port
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No, I'm just saying the switch has to be manually pulled. You have to pull up on it first. If you bump it, nothing happens. The switch does not move by bumping it.
Thumpalumpacus
Lieutenant Colonel
So that we're clear:
www.bbc.com
Air India crash report: Cockpit audio deepens mystery of Flight 171
Fuel cut-off switches were flipped seconds after take-off, a preliminary report finds.
www.bbc.com
Even without the guard brackets you still cannot accidentally switch them off.
We know what happened. What we don't know is why yet.
We know what happened. What we don't know is why yet.
Here is another view of the switches. You can see how they have to be pulled out.
MiTasol
Captain
EDIT -
DerAdlerIstGelandet
covered this in post 122On most if not all 787's these are not guarded toggle switches.
These are the sort where the lever is spring loaded so that a V in the handle locks in to a detent on the switch base so that you must pull the switch handle out before you can lift it up. Unfortunately I cannot quickly find a photo on line but they are as common as dirt in aviation.
EDIT -
On most if not all 787's these are not guarded toggle switches.
These are the sort where the lever is spring loaded so that a V in the handle locks in to a detent on the switch base so that you must pull the switch handle out before you can lift it up. Unfortunately I cannot quickly find a photo on line but they are as common as dirt in aviation.
These type of switches are standard in most cockpits.
MiTasol
Captain
Yep - right back to the 50s at least.
Yeah i got that, just wondered if the locks that are mentioned as "disengaged " in the BBC article were those metel rings ?
Do those switches have the v cut and indent mentioned by
MiTasol
included as well ?Surely, as you guys keep saying it cant be accidently knocked off.
Just trying to learn something.
MiTasol
Captain
From my memory there is no way that the lock can be disengaged on those sort of switches. On the older style switches that had a cover that had to be lifted before use some of the covers could be left "open" which would in affect be a lock disengaged situation but I have never seen any "pull then select" type switches that could be set in an unlocked condition. That does not mean they do not exist but such a switch defeats the whole purpose for having detented switches so I can see no purpose in having them.
It would like fitting a foolproof lock on your house and then leaving home with the door wide open.
Many of the lift the cover type covers were spring loaded to ensure that the switch was always locked in the selected position.
One thing you will often find in cockpits that people find strange is that some switches are up for on and some are down for on. The reason for this is that in an emergency the crew can swipe down across the switch panels and this will place all switches in the safest condition for further operation. It saves critical time compared to the old (roughly pre 50s) aircraft where the crew had to waste time working out what to switch off and what to leave on.
It would like fitting a foolproof lock on your house and then leaving home with the door wide open.
Many of the lift the cover type covers were spring loaded to ensure that the switch was always locked in the selected position.
One thing you will often find in cockpits that people find strange is that some switches are up for on and some are down for on. The reason for this is that in an emergency the crew can swipe down across the switch panels and this will place all switches in the safest condition for further operation. It saves critical time compared to the old (roughly pre 50s) aircraft where the crew had to waste time working out what to switch off and what to leave on.
Yeah i got that, just wondered if the locks that are mentioned as "disengaged " in the BBC article were those metel rings ?
Do those switches have the v cut and indent mentioned by
Surely, as you guys keep saying it cant be accidently knocked off.
Just trying to learn something.
Yes they have v cut. You have tu pull the switch out into order to engage the switch.
We had some of the switches with red covers on our aircraft. but I am not certain if they still do today.
cammerjeff
Staff Sergeant
The traditional Guarded electrical switches changed form about 30 years ago. but they still have RED guards over them, and are usually safety wired with 0.020" copper breakaway wire to discourage accidental deployment of the switches.
The Traditional Toggle switches as seen on a DC9's overhead panel, these are raised plastic guards that cover the old style toggle switch's, compared to the flat RED guards over the push button switch's on a A320's overhead Panel.
And while I have never been in the cockpit of a 787, I assume they are similar to the cockpits of 757, 767, & 747-400's that I used to be taxi qualified on. And yes the fuel control cut off switches had to be pulled up to change the position of the switches. So I agree that inadvertently "bumping" the switches would not be enough to change the switches position.
Source my old NWA training Manuals
The Traditional Toggle switches as seen on a DC9's overhead panel, these are raised plastic guards that cover the old style toggle switch's, compared to the flat RED guards over the push button switch's on a A320's overhead Panel.
And while I have never been in the cockpit of a 787, I assume they are similar to the cockpits of 757, 767, & 747-400's that I used to be taxi qualified on. And yes the fuel control cut off switches had to be pulled up to change the position of the switches. So I agree that inadvertently "bumping" the switches would not be enough to change the switches position.
Source my old NWA training Manuals
Attachments
Yeah I remember ours having copper breakaway safety wire on them.
Komet
Airman
The fuel switches were deliberately shut off in turn one second apart.
Whether the pilot had brain fade and momentarily thought he was back at the gate and not intentional, it still was deliberate. That's the best positive spin I could put on this.
Whether the pilot had brain fade and momentarily thought he was back at the gate and not intentional, it still was deliberate. That's the best positive spin I could put on this.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
I am leaning towards deliberate and whomever turned the switches, planned to do so.
Agreed 100%.
I think it was the Capt too. The FO had his hands on the yoke. The Capt had his hands on the throttles. Once they lifted off he reached down and switched them off.
You then here the FO ask on the CVR "Why did you turn them off?" The Capt responds back with "I didn't." The FO then turns them back on one at a time, leaving one hand on the yoke.
Why did the Capt respond with "I didn't?"
Insurance. If the insurance company knows 100% this was deliberate, they will not pay out to the policy to his family.
Guaranteed the investigation is looking into his medical and financial history.
Disagree. Everything is done with checklists when ops are normal. Plus, with how the switches are designed, you don't simply in a "fade" reach down and turn them off. Maybe one, and then you realize your mistake. Not with ops normal.
Now if there had been an emergency, I could see them accidentally shutting off the good engine, but this was not an emergency. It was ops normal in a sterile cockpit, and they would have been using checklists.
Its not far more likely…
