davebender
1st Lieutenant
First flight and all subsequent flights should have been with DB601 engines. Then the single seat Fw-187 could enter mass production before the end of 1939.
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Hmmm,
tactical use
In BoB, Fw-187 replacing Bf-110 would be primarely assigned to close escort for bombers. Remember, we are changing A/C, not tactics. Used in this capacity, the airplane would be tied to slow bombers, exposing it´s rather poor low speed handling, large target size, poor initial acceleration and low speed roll rate. This is approximately the same tactical limitation which assured the complete failure of the Bf-110. Instead of doing high cover at it´s high cruise speed, exhibiting zoom-climbs, superior dive capabilities and playing the strength of it´s stable weapon platform with concentrated heavy armement, the Fw-187 finds itselfe in no better position than the Bf-110, arguably even in a worse one because the Bf-110 has a rear gunner to at least cover some blind arcs and give opportunity of warning from beeing jumped.
Thus, in my opinion, the presence / absence of the Fw-187 has no effect unless the tactics are drastically changed. It´s not the best plane for dogfighting a single engined A/C like the Hurricane and Spitfire, either. Keep in mind, a twin engined fighter A/C has to be limited in agility compared to a single engined one.
The solution to BoB is not another, more expansive twin engined fighter but
[A] rejection of close escort tactics
a larger number Bf-109, equipped with drop tanks to increase range and endurance
Mr Delcyros
But where you base your claim that the Fw187 would have inferior accelaration and low speed handling? Its power loading with DB601A would be the best of its time , and its 30m2 wing surface provided it with low wing loading
Even its roll rate was near that of the Bf109B during tests
Why such an airplane would not be able to dogfight the british fighters? With clear speed ,roc, dive advantages would be exceptional on the vertical manouvers. The numbers indicate that it may even have superiority in sustained turn rate especially if 601N are used or the british fighters dont use 100 octane fuel ( which anyway is available for 5 minutes)
Initially, engines need to spin up to apply full power. While a Db-601A/B is fast in this, it´s still not an instant event and a slight delay has to be reckoned with. The pilot has to adjust the mixture setting, boost and possibly optimize propellor pitch, too (no Kommandogerät yet), since we have two engines instead of one, engine management takes slightly longer than in a single engined A/C. Fast, but not unnoticably in case of beeing jumped in close escort.
A Db-601A/B driven -187 has some negative aspects, one beeing much heavier than the -210 driven variant. The installation weight of the Jumo-210 was 525 kg (=1050 kg for the -187A) while the Db601N weights in 780kg each (=1560kg for the Db601 Fw-187). Add in structural strengthenings of the main frame, the landing gear, a heavier prop, more coolant liquid and a larger radiator and the empty weight of the Fw-187 should raise from 3,700kg empty to >4,300kg empty. Some more additions I can think of compared to the principal empty weight:
[1] 167kg for armour plate and bullet proof glass (as with Bf-110c)
[2] 225kg for 300 rounds each MG17 + 60 rounds each 20mm gun
[3] 64kg engine oil (same as Bf-110)
[4] 200kg for 2 crew
[5] 964 kg fuel (same as Bf-110)
Thus, I can´t really see, how the take off weight of the Fw-187 can end up much lighter than 6t. That´s 2.4 kg per hp at the very best. Remember, Powerload isn´t determining acceleration, it´s powerweight. While the -187 may be better than th -110 in this regard (=2.6), it´s still worse than a Bf-109e (=2.16) and thus presents no advantage in acceleration over this A/C.
Another problem with that number is the Focke Wulf wing design, which had a simple and thin wing (good for high speed) but a lack of high lift devices, resulting in a rather low Clmax of 1.52. With that coefficient, minimal flying speed should be quite high, around 152 km/h for G(f) = 5950kg (normal take off weight) and 30m^2 wing area as compared to 132km/h at 6530kg normal take off weight for the Bf-110C2. Thus, a higher landing speed has to be reckoned with, correspondingly a larger stall speed at any altitude too, and these airplanes cannot as easily negotiate shorter runways as could the -109 and -110.
I am not to enthusiastic about the charmant looking Fw-187. This airplane bought speed by reducing the size of fuselage and wing, and by adopting a high speed airfoil, not by more advanced aerodynamic concepts of airframe integration. The same trick-in principle- can be done with the Bf-110c. Originally the top speed raised from 328mph to 345 mph with the change from Db601A to Db-601N. It´s 38.2m^2 wing area reduced to 31 to 32m^2 should give similar ~150 km/h min. speed but top speed in the region of ~360mph with Db601A and ~378mph with Db601N, slightly slower than the Fw-187, but not by much.
Soooo,it seems that Focke-Wulf were keen to use an evaporative cooling system in conjunction with the DB 601 A on their Fw 187.
Focke-Wulf and Daimler Benz cooperated on developing such a system with the second DB 601 A prototype. Testing,not in an airframe but on stands,was completed in July 1939. The first test run of the system in a Fw 187 was on the port engine of V5 on 15th September 1939. You'll notice that at least as far as the British and French are concerned WW2 has already started and the airframe/engine combination has not yet flown.
The testing of the DB 601 engines (V40 and V 42) continued into 1941,there were plenty of problems to sort out.
No chance of being in service for the BoB.
I did say I had problems with the time frame.
Cheers
Steve
The P-51 had a laminar flow wing only in theory. Both US and British aerodynamicists doubted this in real flight conditions and a very long and thorough German investigation concluded that.
"These measurements clearly revealed the fact that the laminar flow effect completely disappeared at real flight Reynold Numbers."
And
"the performance of the Mustang could not be attributed to its laminar flow airfoil. It was the overall low drag design of this aircraft with clean surfaces including the careful design of the radiator that was the key of its good performance."
Cheers
Steve
Havent read all the thread guys, so apologies if my comments are repeats.
Early on , one of the assumptions is that there would be 300 FW 187s available, each using 2 of the precious DB 601s. I assume those 300 will come as a replacement for the Me 110 units.
However, I doubt that as a financial burden that you can make a straight 1 for 1 conversion. The FW 187 was later development, requiring its own R&D and all the costs with setting up an additional production line. The type is inherently newer than the Me 110, and by August 1940, there were only 248 available, though 350 had participated in the BOF. Getting 300 of a newer, untested type into service whilst not producing the Me 110 will have some rather dire effects on the force structure. All those 350 Me110s that participated in the BOF would not be available, which means a higher attrition rate I think on the Me109 forces in the BOF. You might think that with 350 less a/c to fight the BOF, the LW might only take an additional 110 fighter losses. However I disagree. During the BOF, the LW took full advantage of the range and firepower of the Me110s and this, I think had a multiplying effect on French fighter lossese. Its anyones guess as to how many additional losses the absence of Me 110s in the BOF would have on LW force structure, but I dont think it out of the realm of possibility to say that the total forces entering the BOB might be 5-600 less than what was historical (that includes bombers lost because they were not provided with Zerstorer escort).
So, into this hypothetical equation we need to make allowance for the increased cost of a new type, the increased cost of setting up a new production line, and the additional losses caused by the absence of certain critical elements of the LW in the campaigns leading up to BOB. Its a matter of opinion, but i think it entirely possible that the LW would start its BoB with 5-800 less a/c than it did, because it wanted a second fighter in its inventory.