Effect of operational Fw187s during the Battle of Britain

[Milosh]

How many DB601 engines were produced up to the end of the BoF?

Would there be enough for the Bf109, Bf110 and Fw187?

 

[nuuumannn]

I'm not saying that all of the low drag was because of the wing, but contribution of the wing to the low overall drag should not be downplayed.

I kind of agree with you there, Tomo; the Mustang's aerodynamics was carefully calculated across the whole airframe, its design incorporated what was termed as 'conical geometry' in the calculations made. Despite this, however, a significant part of the low drag and high speed of the aircraft for its size and weight on essentially the same engine as the Spit Mk.IX was down to the positioning of its radiator and F.W. Meredith's 'air pump' concept. This was confirmed by Lee Attwood (him again), who carried out the research into the aircraft's aerodynamics.

 

[tomo pauk]

(sorry for derailing the thread)
Some other things P-51 had from day one until the end, in contrast with Spit Bf-109: fully covered main wheels, along with retractable tailwheel, again flly covered when retracted. That should give another 10 mph vs. planes lacking the features; the Bf-109 was to gain 11-14 km/h only via installation of main wheel well covers (here, scroll down).

 

[wiking85]

No one has answered my question as to whether the Fw 187 was going to be fitted with self sealing tanks or armour plating, which would change weight figures, and as Delcyros astutely pointed out, in 1940, the aerodynamics of the Fw 187 would need to change to produce the performance that is being bandied about here. This would not have been able to be done in time for the Battle of Britain. The Hornet is a good example, since if it was fitted with chunky radiators like the Fw 187s under its propeller, the drag would surely effect its speed (and its looks; although this is not consequential, it is important since the Hornet is one attractive aeroplane ).

These radiators' surface area would also need to be enlarged to compensate for the extra power output of the DB 601s. Take the Spitfire for example; look at the difference in surface area of its radiators between the Mk.V, Mk.IX and XIV fitted with Griffon engines.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, none of the Fw 187 proponents have acknowledged that if it did have such sterling performance, what would the British response be? As I said, you can sure as heck be certain they wouldn't just sit on their hands.

Can you prove that they weren't designed with self sealing tanks and armor plating from the beginning?
As someone mentioned before when the Fw187 was tested with the DB601 it ended up with between 380-90 mph despite having enlarged radiators.

 

[wiking85]

No one has answered my question as to whether the Fw 187 was going to be fitted with self sealing tanks or armour plating, which would change weight figures, and as Delcyros astutely pointed out, in 1940, the aerodynamics of the Fw 187 would need to change to produce the performance that is being bandied about here. This would not have been able to be done in time for the Battle of Britain. The Hornet is a good example, since if it was fitted with chunky radiators like the Fw 187s under its propeller, the drag would surely effect its speed (and its looks; although this is not consequential, it is important since the Hornet is one attractive aeroplane ).

These radiators' surface area would also need to be enlarged to compensate for the extra power output of the DB 601s. Take the Spitfire for example; look at the difference in surface area of its radiators between the Mk.V, Mk.IX and XIV fitted with Griffon engines.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, none of the Fw 187 proponents have acknowledged that if it did have such sterling performance, what would the British response be? As I said, you can sure as heck be certain they wouldn't just sit on their hands.

Can you prove that they weren't designed with self sealing tanks and armor plating from the beginning?
As someone mentioned before when the Fw187 was tested with the DB601 it ended up with between 380-90 mph despite having enlarged radiators.

 

[parsifal]

Based on the timeframes we are talking about the Fw187 would also be in service by the BoF. It won't have the same numbers as the Bf110 units I'd think, but they would be available and therefore filling the role of the Bf110.

The real difference would be in Poland, but the Bf110 had hardly entered service by then and was barely usable historically until it started taking the Db601 about that time. IIRC the Bf110 units had to use Me109 in Poland because of severe shortages of Bf110s.

Design work stated on the Bf 110 in 1934, with prototypes ready by 1937. Pro duction was delayed until the introduction of the me 110C series in early 1939, but by the end of 1939 some 500 had been delivered.

By the time Germany invaded Poland on September 1, 1939, ten Luftwaffe Gruppen had been equipped with the heavy fighter.

If in 1938 you abandon Me 110 production, you will be relying on a design 3 years younger. Historically the FW 187 A entered a small production run of three Fw 187 A-0 followed in June 1939, based upon the V3 prototype and using the Jumo 210G engines. The Luftwaffe, however, stated that without defensive armament the aircraft could not fit the Zerstörer role (because of limited range perhaps) , and remained uninterested in the design. The three two-seat prototypes were returned to Focke-Wulf after testing at Rechlin. Which means it was not ready for quantity production in the Summer. It might be ready for limited introduction in say February or March 1940. If we use the Me 110 experience as a rough yardstick of experience, you might have 80 or so ready for BOF.....not nearly enough to fill the 100s shoes during the BOF.

Once again, assuming the Fw187 development follows the usual 24 months of development from the first prototype entering testing to serial production, the Fw187 would be ready in May 1939 for serial production; within a year (by May 1940) there would be several units fielding Fw187s operationally ready. It may only be two Geschwader, but even three is not unthinkable in one year from the start of production.

Historically it wasnt ready for serial production even in June, and that was an incomplete and (in the eyes of the customer) an unsatisfactory type. Clearly further work was needed to bring the FW 187 up to steam. Its an op[en gues as to what that might entail timewaise, but given armament was yet to be fitted, and a re-engning was to take place, I doubt it could be much less than 6-8 months.

It is dangerous and unsound logic to assume a 24 month development time for TE types. For cutting edge techs like the FW 187 you are better assuming a 36 month development time, though there is no more science in my estimate than is contained in yours

 

[nuuumannn]

Can you prove that they weren't designed with self sealing tanks and armor plating from the beginning?

Read my post again - I'm ASKING if it did and I'll ask again, can it be confirmed, not hypothesised? During tests I presume that it did not, therefore in service it would have, so weight would most certainly have contributed to a degradation in performance, plus the fitting of combat radios etc, things that would not have been fitted to a prototype.

despite having enlarged radiators.

Nowhere has anyone mentioned enlarged radiators in this thread except myself.
Stop exaggerating, not even the Fw 187 was capable of defying the laws of physics (oops, sorry, silly me, it was German, of course it could!). Without streamlining its engine cowls after fitting essential combat equipment, its not likely that it would still have been able to reach 390 mph in service. The Mosquito prototype reached 388 mph in testing and the B.IV in service had a maximum speed of 380 mph. With full fuel and load, this was decreased. The Fw 187 would not be any different.

 

[wiking85]

Design work stated on the Bf 110 in 1934, with prototypes ready by 1937. Pro duction was delayed until the introduction of the me 110C series in early 1939, but by the end of 1939 some 500 had been delivered.

By the time Germany invaded Poland on September 1, 1939, ten Luftwaffe Gruppen had been equipped with the heavy fighter.

If in 1938 you abandon Me 110 production, you will be relying on a design 3 years younger. Historically the FW 187 A entered a small production run of three Fw 187 A-0 followed in June 1939, based upon the V3 prototype and using the Jumo 210G engines. The Luftwaffe, however, stated that without defensive armament the aircraft could not fit the Zerstörer role (because of limited range perhaps) , and remained uninterested in the design. The three two-seat prototypes were returned to Focke-Wulf after testing at Rechlin. Which means it was not ready for quantity production in the Summer. It might be ready for limited introduction in say February or March 1940. If we use the Me 110 experience as a rough yardstick of experience, you might have 80 or so ready for BOF.....not nearly enough to fill the 100s shoes during the BOF.

Again in this scenario the Zerstörer role is cancelled and replaced with a long range escort fighter requirement; that will mean that when the Fw187 enters testing it doesn't go down the historic path of redesigns for the two seater role nor is tested with the Jumo 210. It goes with the DB600 as Tank requested, so follows a straight line to long range escort fighter, rather than the historic diversions that delayed its introduction.

Also check how many Bf110s actually served in the Polish campaign; according to the USAF monograph of the Luftwaffe in the Polish campaign the actual numbers in service on September 1st were less than 200.

Historically it wasnt ready for serial production even in June, and that was an incomplete and (in the eyes of the customer) an unsatisfactory type. Clearly further work was needed to bring the FW 187 up to steam. Its an op[en gues as to what that might entail timewaise, but given armament was yet to be fitted, and a re-engning was to take place, I doubt it could be much less than 6-8 months.

It is dangerous and unsound logic to assume a 24 month development time for TE types. For cutting edge techs like the FW 187 you are better assuming a 36 month development time, though there is no more science in my estimate than is contained in yours

I don't understand where we are disconnecting about the point of this thread: the FW187 is not following historical development, as the Bf110 is cancelled and the Fw187 is not modified to fit the Destroyer role, which is also scrapped with the Bf110. Therefore when it first flies in May 1937 it is with the Db600 engine, the one it was designed around in the first place, and it is not redesigned as a two seat Destroyer. Historical delays won't matter to this scenario because they won't occur here. The switch to the Db601 when it becomes available won't be that big of a change, because both engines are virtually the same size and weight. There will be little if any change to the frame and the addition of larger radiators as needed.
Armament will be added as testing continues in 1937-9.

Where are you getting 36 months from? My quote of 24 months are from Edward Homze's "Arming the Luftwaffe" when talking about developing new types of aircraft and engines. There is a whole section on it in the book. There is no reason the Fw187 if it continued development as a single seat escort fighter, as I have repeatedly restated from the OP, with its requested engine, the DB600, from the outset would take more than 24 months to bring to production.

 

[wuzak]

The Mosquito prototype reached 388 mph in testing and the B.IV in service had a maximum speed of 380 mph.

The B.IV was slower than 380mph when, initially, not fitted with ejector exhausts. The ejector exhausts fitted later brought the top speed up to 380mph.

W4050 hit nearly 440mph with 70 series Merlins, but production B.IXs and B.XVIs could not get near that.

 

[parsifal]

so, we are in reality just calling it a FW 187 for convenience. In reality we should call it something like the Luftwaffes wet dreams fighter, since it has no basis on history or the real world

 

[Glider]

Can you prove that they weren't designed with self sealing tanks and armor plating from the beginning?
As someone mentioned before when the Fw187 was tested with the DB601 it ended up with between 380-90 mph despite having enlarged radiators.

Prove no, but it would be unique in 1937. The assumption has to be that seen as every other aircraft in the Luftwaffe didn't have armour or self sealing tanks in 1939/40 then why should it have this protection

 

[wiking85]

so, we are in reality just calling it a FW 187 for convenience. In reality we should call it something like the Luftwaffes wet dreams fighter, since it has no basis on history or the real world

And you are basing that on?
Its the same fighter that entered testing in May 1937, except fitted with the DB600. Instead of the post-V3 prototypes being modified to cram in a second crew member the aircraft continues its development with the single seater version and Db600 series engines. Eventually the production version would be different than the historical version, in that it has the Db601 engine and is a single seat escort fighter, rather than being stretched to include a radioman.
So it follows the development trajectory of the original design, and the A-0 series demonstrated that it was a viable aircraft, but here it would just stick closer to the original design, rather than being modified to be crammed into a role it wasn't designed for.
I don't see how that is a 'wet dream' that has no basis in reality. It very much as a basis in reality, though its single seat A-1 series performance figures are debatable.

 

[wiking85]

so, we are in reality just calling it a FW 187 for convenience. In reality we should call it something like the Luftwaffes wet dreams fighter, since it has no basis on history or the real world

And you are basing that on?
Its the same fighter that entered testing in May 1937, except fitted with the DB600. Instead of the post-V3 prototypes being modified to cram in a second crew member the aircraft continues its development with the single seater version and Db600 series engines. Eventually the production version would be different than the historical version, in that it has the Db601 engine and is a single seat escort fighter, rather than being stretched to include a radioman.
So it follows the development trajectory of the original design, and the A-0 series demonstrated that it was a viable aircraft, but here it would just stick closer to the original design, rather than being modified to be crammed into a role it wasn't designed for.
I don't see how that is a 'wet dream' that has no basis in reality. It very much as a basis in reality, though its single seat A-1 series performance figures are debatable.

 

[parsifal]

And you are basing that on?

1) Disregarding the actual service entry of the "V" series prototypes
2) Disregarding the total lack of interest in the type by the customer
3) Introduction of new engine technology at a time that maximises the benefits to the type, and not the likley realities of the type.
4) A total failure to appreciate or accept the difficulties inherent to the introduction of a new type.
5) Disregading the design specification for the type as built, rather than as conceived.

Its the same fighter that entered testing in May 1937, except fitted with the DB600.

Thats one of the fantasies. There are several other, previously mentioned.

Instead of the post-V3 prototypes being modified to cram in a second crew member the aircraft continues its development with the single seater version and Db600 series engines.


Eventually the production version would be different than the historical version, in that it has the Db601 engine and is a single seat escort fighter, rather than being stretched to include a radioman.

In other words a redesigned fighter, which takes time to achieve, and no certainty that it would even be attempted let alone solved.

So it follows the development trajectory of the original design, and the A-0 series demonstrated that it was a viable aircraft, but here it would just stick closer to the original design, rather than being modified to be crammed into a role it wasn't designed for.

Kurt Tanks original design concept was for a single seat fighter. The LW rejected that proposal as uneccessary. That might seem as a trivial issue, biut its not. It was designed in the finish as a competitor for the Zertorer role. Thats how the prototype was developed. anything else is a non existent fantasy fighter with unknown characteristics and disputable results. One result that is certain is that it would affect the force structure downwards

I don't see how that is a 'wet dream' that has no basis in reality. It very much as a basis in reality, though its single seat A-1 series performance figures are debatable.

Sorry, but the "design you are attempting to promote never existed in reality. It only ever emerged as a version of the zerstorer specification. You want to ignore all that history, thats fine, but it aint a FW 187 that we are looking at. Its some persons wet dream of the ideal LW fighter, devoid of nearly all reality and connection to history. In other words, a fantasy fighter. Happy to discuss that but only on the terms that are a realistic description of what you are proposing,.

 

[wiking85]

1) Disregarding the actual service entry of the "V" series prototypes
2) Disregarding the total lack of interest in the type by the customer
3) Introduction of new engine technology at a time that maximises the benefits to the type, and not the likley realities of the type.
4) A total failure to appreciate or accept the difficulties inherent to the introduction of a new type.
5) Disregading the design specification for the type as built, rather than as conceived.



Thats one of the fantasies. There are several other, previously mentioned.




In other words a redesigned fighter, which takes time to achieve, and no certainty that it would even be attempted let alone solved.




Kurt Tanks original design concept was for a single seat fighter. The LW rejected that proposal as uneccessary. That might seem as a trivial issue, biut its not. It was designed in the finish as a competitor for the Zertorer role. Thats how the prototype was developed. anything else is a non existent fantasy fighter with unknown characteristics and disputable results. One result that is certain is that it would affect the force structure downwards




Sorry, but the "design you are attempting to promote never existed in reality. It only ever emerged as a version of the zerstorer specification. You want to ignore all that history, thats fine, but it aint a FW 187 that we are looking at. Its some persons wet dream of the ideal LW fighter, devoid of nearly all reality and connection to history. In other words, a fantasy fighter. Happy to discuss that but only on the terms that are a realistic description of what you are proposing,.

Again, you realize we are discussing a hypothetical here, right? The hypothetical is that the RLM recognizes that the Destroyer role is not necessary and instead opt for a single seat long range escort fighter. If you want to discuss the issues with the historical project then start a thread about why it wasn't possible historically to field the Fw187. We aren't discussing the whys of the type not being selected, because the entire premise of this thread is that those aren't an issue and rather what would be the effect of the original design being selected for the role it was intended and used operationally in the Battle of Britain.
Its clear that your either trolling or just not understanding the point of the discussion I was trying to have. Either way you are intentionally derailing the thread from the central premise that it was created to discuss: what would the effect be on the Battle of Britain if 3 Geschwader of the single seat escort version of the Fw187 were available.

If it makes you happy I'll acknowledge that the fighter I'm describing never entered full scale production and is a hypothetical aircraft, as we only has some versions of it to extrapolate performance from. That is the point of a hypothetical, to discuss what did not exist in history.

 

[wiking85]

1) Disregarding the actual service entry of the "V" series prototypes
2) Disregarding the total lack of interest in the type by the customer
3) Introduction of new engine technology at a time that maximises the benefits to the type, and not the likley realities of the type.
4) A total failure to appreciate or accept the difficulties inherent to the introduction of a new type.
5) Disregading the design specification for the type as built, rather than as conceived.



Thats one of the fantasies. There are several other, previously mentioned.




In other words a redesigned fighter, which takes time to achieve, and no certainty that it would even be attempted let alone solved.




Kurt Tanks original design concept was for a single seat fighter. The LW rejected that proposal as uneccessary. That might seem as a trivial issue, biut its not. It was designed in the finish as a competitor for the Zertorer role. Thats how the prototype was developed. anything else is a non existent fantasy fighter with unknown characteristics and disputable results. One result that is certain is that it would affect the force structure downwards




Sorry, but the "design you are attempting to promote never existed in reality. It only ever emerged as a version of the zerstorer specification. You want to ignore all that history, thats fine, but it aint a FW 187 that we are looking at. Its some persons wet dream of the ideal LW fighter, devoid of nearly all reality and connection to history. In other words, a fantasy fighter. Happy to discuss that but only on the terms that are a realistic description of what you are proposing,.

Again, you realize we are discussing a hypothetical here, right? The hypothetical is that the RLM recognizes that the Destroyer role is not necessary and instead opt for a single seat long range escort fighter. If you want to discuss the issues with the historical project then start a thread about why it wasn't possible historically to field the Fw187. We aren't discussing the whys of the type not being selected, because the entire premise of this thread is that those aren't an issue and rather what would be the effect of the original design being selected for the role it was intended and used operationally in the Battle of Britain.
Its clear that your either trolling or just not understanding the point of the discussion I was trying to have. Either way you are intentionally derailing the thread from the central premise that it was created to discuss: what would the effect be on the Battle of Britain if 3 Geschwader of the single seat escort version of the Fw187 were available.

If it makes you happy I'll acknowledge that the fighter I'm describing never entered full scale production and is a hypothetical aircraft, as we only has some versions of it to extrapolate performance from. That is the point of a hypothetical, to discuss what did not exist in history.

 

[nuuumannn]

The B.IV was slower than 380mph when, initially, not fitted with ejector exhausts. The ejector exhausts fitted later brought the top speed up to 380mph.

Thanks Wuzak, reinforces my point.

Kurt Tanks original design concept was for a single seat fighter. The LW rejected that proposal as uneccessary. That might seem as a trivial issue, but its not. It was designed in the finish as a competitor for the Zerstorer role.

Whilst I have no doubt that the Fw 187 as it was (not in fantasyland), was actually an outstanding design with impressive performance and had it been put into production would have caused some serious headaches in the British Air Ministry and it seems to be that the RLM missed a trick in not putting it into production. So, was the reason it wasn't down to the fact that the RLM didn't want a single seat tein engined fighter? Did personal bias come into it at all?

 

[parsifal]

Its okay to discuss a hypothetical in which the zerstorer spec is disreagrded, but therein lies the first of a number of assumptions that make this a "fantasy fighter" rather than a FW 187 derivative. Im happy to discuss the potentialities of a "fantasy fighter" on the understanding that its just that, and therefore need to consider the "fantasy fighters" that might have been made by the opposition. But trying to pass this off as "alternative histopry" or a plausible development of the FW187 it simply cannot be.

 

[wiking85]

Its okay to discuss a hypothetical in which the zerstorer spec is disreagrded, but therein lies the first of a number of assumptions that make this a "fantasy fighter" rather than a FW 187 derivative. Im happy to discuss the potentialities of a "fantasy fighter" on the understanding that its just that, and therefore need to consider the "fantasy fighters" that might have been made by the opposition. But trying to pass this off as "alternative histopry" or a plausible development of the FW187 it simply cannot be.

The entire point of this hypothetical was to discuss the effects of the fighter serving in the Battle of Britain; if the result is that the British respond with their own hypothetical aircraft(s), then it falls within the OP. I don't want to continue the semantical argument over whether the Fw187 single seater constitutes alternate history or not. Frankly its a pointless pissing contest. Technically speaking the aircraft had the ability to exist as I describe it, so in that sense it is not a fantasy aircraft, in the sense of whether the aircraft I describe existed in the time frame I suggest, then yes, you are right that it would be an 'fantasy' aircraft because it did not exist as such at that time. We can argue whether later developments are indicators of the 1940 potential performance, but as of 1940 the Fw187 did not exist in the configuration I describe. So if that concession satisfies your demands, can we return to the central premise of this thread?

 

[Shortround6]

the Fw 187 was not wanted as a single seat fighter and given the shortage of DB 601 engines during 1938-1940 it is a little hard to see the Luftwaffe changing their minds.

It was changed to a two seater in an attempt to salvage the design, Granted the specification was totally unrealistic and even the 110 didn't meet the full specification ( no internal bomb bay) but there you are.

Trying to meet the zerstorer specification using the common radio used in single seat fighters ( 50km range on a good day?) wasn't going to happen.

I wish someone could point out how the 2nd crewman cost 500kg because I can't figure it out.

One crewman, dressed with parachute=100kg.

One Mg 181 rear gun =6.5 KG plus gun mount???

1000 rounds 7.9mm ammo= 10KG?

Weight of seat and furnishings ??= 30kg?

Weight of radio in Fw 197 "C" proposal= 141 KG

Under 300Kg.

And you need some sort of radio in a single seater. Does anyone know the weight of the radio in a 109 of 1940?

About that "stretched fuselage". The fuselage of a Curtiss P-40 weighed 418-449lbs ( 190-204kg) from the firewall to the rudder post (depending on model and individual aircraft) and the Americans were not noted for making light weight aircraft.

BTW the single seat FW 187 first two prototypes had a pair of MG 17s for armament. the V-3 had radiators 15% bigger than the V1 V2 becasue they couldn't cool their 680hp Jumo engines in all flight conditions let alone the 710HP Jumo.

The Fw 187 gained around 1000 kg from the V-1 to the A-O versions and not just because of the second seat or even 1/2 the increase due to the second seat.

The American P-39 managed to gain around 722kg going from first unarmed prototype to the D-2 model and they cut fuel capacity, took out the turbo and inter-cooler.

The Spitfire gained about 700lbs (318kg) from prototype to MK I service model as used in the BoB (constant speed prop).

edit> as far as "fantasy aircraft" goes this does enter into it. Hypothetical performance numbers are being thrown about that don't seem to stand up to a rational analysis. The 1937 weight figures do not include self-sealing tanks or armor. the Numbers for the A-0 may, they were fitted with "armoured" windscreens unlike the earlier versions. The 1937 version had the fire power of a Heinkel 51. Adding guns requires more than just the weight of the guns and ammo.