Engine Fires on Halifax Bomber

[jay hammond]

Hello

I am trying to find out how a port outer engine fire on a Halifax bomber could cause the bomber to crash. I am hoping someone could explain what the pilot had to do and was it physically demanding? Did the fact it was the port outer mean anything? Were the flying characteristics of the plane affected and if so how? Thanks.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I don't know many specifics about the incident or the Halifax's design, but I can see the fire either damaging flight-controls directly (impinging on control-cabling or the fabric-covered ailerons), or the heat therefrom weakening the wing-spar causing a partial but still fatal failure.

 

[MiTasol]

Or moving back into the fuel tanks in the wing.

There are seven tanks in each wing and any one catching fire would burn through primary structure (spars and/or skins) causing structural failure. There are tanks behind and both sides of the outboard engines shown here in yellow - two tanks are not shown.

 

[BiffF15]

Inadvertent post.

 

[jay hammond]

Or moving back into the fuel tanks in the wing.

There are seven tanks in each wing and any one catching fire would burn through primary structure (spars and/or skins) causing structural failure. There are tanks behind and both sides of the outboard engines shown here in yellow - two tanks are not shown.

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Thank you very much for your insight. Now I just need to find out how a burning engine made a plane unmanageable to the point the bomber couldn't fly. Have you any ideas?

 

[pbehn]

Thank you very much for your insight. Now I just need to find out how a burning engine made a plane unmanageable to the point the bomber couldn't fly. Have you any ideas?

Well you can lose an engine in many ways. If it is shut down and the prop feathered it isnt so much of an issue. If the engine seizes and the prop cant be feathered that is a huge issue. It causes massive drag, and if it is the outside engine, that makes things worse.

 

[SaparotRob]

Well you can lose an engine in many ways. If it is shut down and the prop feathered it isnt so much of an issue. If the engine seizes and the prop cant be feathered that is a huge issue. It causes massive drag, and if it is the outside engine, that makes things worse.

The airplane wants to "pivot" around the dead engine?

 

[Crimea_River]

Yes. You may get so much drag on the port side that full right rudder can not prevent a yaw to the left. If aileron controls are also affected there could be a resulting irrecoverable spiral down to the left.

 

[pbehn]

Yes. You may get so much drag on the port side that full right rudder can not prevent a yaw to the left. If aileron controls are also affected there could be a resulting irrecoverable spiral down to the left.

I think the early Halifax's with rudders as per Mitasol's post #3 already had "control authority" issues with the rudders.

 

[pbehn]

The airplane wants to "pivot" around the dead engine?

Yes, almost as efficient as an air brake as a means of propulsion, I dont think it does the engine mounts any good either as the loads are in the opposite direction. However if the prop can be feathered things are different, I read of a Lancaster losing its outer engine and with it the power for the rear turret after take off, they just went on with the mission with no further problems after feathering it.

 

[SaparotRob]

Yes, almost as efficient as an air brake as a means of propulsion, I dont think it does the engine mounts any good either as the loads are in the opposite direction. However if the prop can be feathered things are different, I read of a Lancaster losing its outer engine and with it the power for the rear turret after take off, they just went on with the mission with no further problems after feathering it.

Keep calm and carry on.

 

[nuuumannn]

Thank you very much for your insight. Now I just need to find out how a burning engine made a plane unmanageable to the point the bomber couldn't fly. Have you any ideas?

It's pretty obvious when you think about it. If the flight control cables are burnt through, controls will not respond to inputs.

The early Halifaxes had limitations put on rudder deflection owing to a nasty tendency for the rudders to over balance when deflected fully. This meant that they would stay in place in their full deflected position, defying all attempts by the pilots at resetting them, resulting in the aircraft spiral-diving into the ground. Aircrews were frequently killed by this nasty fault that affected the aircraft for the first two years of its RAF career. It wasn't until a redesign of the vertical fin and rudder that the issue was cured. It was retrofitted to Halifax Mk.IIs in service before being made standard on subsequent marks of the aircraft, including the Mk.III.

Keep calm and carry on.

"That's it, the Nelson spirit, wot wot..."

 

[jay hammond]

I don't know many specifics about the incident or the Halifax's design, but I can see the fire either damaging flight-controls directly (impinging on control-cabling or the fabric-covered ailerons), or the heat therefrom weakening the wing-spar causing a partial but still fatal failure.

Does anyone know whether the ailerons on a Halifax Mk III were metal or fabric?

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Does anyone know whether the ailerons on a Halifax Mk III were metal or fabric?

I don't. Maybe G Geoffrey Sinclair could shed some light? He has a pretty good grasp of fine detail.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Hello

I am trying to find out how a port outer engine fire on a Halifax bomber could cause the bomber to crash.

Is this about the Halifax I saw at the RAF Hendon Museum?

Handley Page Halifax Mk.II (W1048) – On 27th April 1943 this aircraft, also known as 'S for Sugar' departed RAF Kinloss as part of a planned attack on the infamous German battleship Tirpitz and, after being damaged by defensive fire, crash landed on the frozen Lake Hoklingen. Recovered in 1973 the airframe is displayed in the condition it was found and is one of the most evocative pieces in the museum.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

All the references I have say the Halifax as produced had ailerons that were fabric covered to at least the mark VIII, similar for the other control surfaces. I do not know whether any in post war service received an upgrade to the surfaces similar to the Lancasters receiving metal covered elevators.

 

[GrauGeist]

An outboard engine fire on a Halifax, if not contained, will lead to disaster if the fire spreads to the fuel cells, of course, but the fabric-covered aileron (seen in the diagram on post #3), becomes damaged, it can lead to loss of control.

 

[Engineman]

Well, Port outer on the 3 blade Merlin Halifax suffered badly with propeller vibration, enough to eventually fail the prop shaft bearings. No doubt some of these failures may have caused/contributed to fires. Fitting 4 blade props reduced the vibration problem.
Whatever, all engines had a feathering system and fire bottle to treat a fire. However, both systems were not 100%. The Pilots Notes describe how to deal with failures and fires. However, the generally rosy descriptions of happily flying along after a failure or fire are not backed-up with the implications of a propeller that will not feather or, a fire that will not go out. Generally, a dead (locked) engine with a prop that is not feathered would require a continuous descent to land with the opposite engine at idle, except at very light weight. An uncontrolled (runaway) prop would be similar, requiring slowest speed and likely to suffer physical failure and/or fire.
Fires that won't go out are likely to cause structural failure of the wing.

Eng

 

[HP52]

Is this about the Halifax I saw at the RAF Hendon Museum?

Handley Page Halifax Mk.II (W1048) – On 27th April 1943 this aircraft, also known as 'S for Sugar' departed RAF Kinloss as part of a planned attack on the infamous German battleship Tirpitz and, after being damaged by defensive fire, crash landed on the frozen Lake Hoklingen. Recovered in 1973 the airframe is displayed in the condition it was found and is one of the most evocative pieces in the museum.

Was that particular Halibag Don Bennet's

 

[GregP]

I doubt if losing one aileron's fabric cover would cause a crash since the other aileron retains its authority. The handling would be a bit quirky, but likely not fatal.

I have flown RC's with one aileron after one failed and they flew OK after I slowed down and the aileron quit flapping. I forgot to put a screw in the servo arm and it came off, leaving that aileron free. It was interesting, but not uncontrollable. Might or might not work the same way on full scale aircraft, but at least SOME aircraft had had one aileron damaged by flak or fighters that made it home OK. Likely bombers' too.

Kind of depends on how severe the damage is when the big hit occurs.